'You didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!'

by William Penwell 148 Replies latest jw friends

  • Pleasuredome
    Pleasuredome

    two tanks sitting at the side of a road does not constitute a checkpoint. there's no signs, no barriers or chicane, no soldiers to flag them down.... are these women supposed to be mind readers? and you know what women drivers are like anyway.

    The soldiers were from the Army's 3rd Infantry Division, which lost four soldiers Saturday at another checkpoint when an Iraqi soldier posing as a taxi driver detonated a car bomb in a suicide attack.

    AND?????? so what? what do you think the british army have been going through in northern ireland for the past 30 years? but they dont blow up cars as they approach checkpoints.

    would the real thichi please shut up.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    ThiChi; I find it very funny you accuse others of being 'arm chair generals'. And you are?

    I also find it disturbing to think about the limits to your justifications. How many civilians can troops kill before it's too many? Maybe you can define a ratio, it's about 1 soldier dead to every 7 civilans at the moment? How many dead civilians per dead soldier is permissable before it's too many? Ten? Twenty?

    I can understand (and mourn) for collateral deaths in bombing et.al.); if you look at TV pictures of Bhagdad being bombed it is quite noticable it's still has electricity, so care is being taken with the tragic collatoral deaths being kept to a minimum.

    But most of the accounts make this seem a case of incompetence on part of the troops involved. Yes, they were scared, they had lost comrades in arms, but they were trained for it and had guns. The civilians were not trained for it and had no guns, and were probably just as scared. Just like it was incompetance that lead an A10 pilot to attack clearly marked UK vehicles.

    If what the Americans are fighting for does not include owning up to errors...

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    'I saw the heads of my two little girls come off'

    April 2 2003, 11:38 AM

    An Iraqi mother in a van fired on by US soldiers says she saw her two young daughters decapitated in the incident that also killed her son and eight other members of her family.

    The children's father, who was also in the van, said US soldiers fired on them as they fled towards a checkpoint because they thought a leaflet dropped by US helicopters told them to "be safe", and they believed that meant getting out of their village to Karbala.

    Bakhat Hassan - who lost his daughters, aged two and five, his three-year-old son, his parents, two older brothers, their wives and two nieces aged 12 and 15, in the incident - said US soldiers at an earlier checkpoint had waved them through.

    As they approached another checkpoint 40km south of Karbala, they waved again at the American soldiers.

    "We were thinking these Americans want us to be safe," Hassan said through an Army translator at a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital set up at a vast Army support camp near Najaf.

    The soldiers didn't wave back. They fired.

    "I saw the heads of my two little girls come off," Hassan's heavily pregnant wife, Lamea, 36, said numbly.

    She repeated herself in a flat, even voice: "My girls - I watched their heads come off their bodies. My son is dead."

    US officials originally gave the death toll from the incident as seven, but reporters at the scene placed it at 10. And Bakhat Hassan terrible toll was 11 members of his family.

    Hassan's father died at the Army hospital later.

    US officials said the soldiers at an Army checkpoint who opened fire were following orders not to let vehicles approach checkpoints.

    On Saturday, a suicide bomber had killed four US soldiers outside Najaf.

    Details emerging from interviews with survivors of yesterday's incident tell a distressing tale of a family fleeing towards what they thought would be safety, tragically misunderstanding instructions.

    Hassan's father, in his 60s, wore his best clothes for the trip through the American lines: a pinstriped suit.

    "To look American," Hassan said.

    An Army report written last night cited "a miscommunication with civilians" as the cause of the incident.

    Hassan, his wife and another of his brothers are in intensive care at the MASH unit.

    Another brother, sister-in-law and a seven-year-old child were released to bury the dead.

    The Shi'ite family of 17 was packed into a 1974 Land Rover, so crowded that Bakhat, 35, was outside on the rear bumper hanging on to the back door.

    Everyone else was piled on one another's laps in three sets of seats.

    They were fleeing their farm town southeast of Karbala, where US attack helicopters had fired missiles and rockets the day before.

    Helicopters also had dropped leaflets on the town: a drawing of a family sitting at a table eating and smiling with a message written in Arabic.

    Sergeant 1st Class Stephen Furbush, an Army intelligence analyst, said the message read: "To be safe, stay put."

    But Hassan said he and his father thought it just said: "Be safe".

    To them, that meant getting away from the helicopters firing rockets and missiles.

    His father drove. They planned to go to Karbala. They stopped at an Army checkpoint on the northbound road near Sahara, about 40km south of Karbala, and were told to go on, Hassan said.

    But "the Iraqi family misunderstood" what the soldiers were saying, Furbush said.

    A few kilometres later, a Bradley Fighting Vehicle came into view. The family waved as it came closer. The soldiers opened fire.

    Hassan remembers an Army medic at the scene of the killings speaking Arabic.

    "He told us it was a mistake and the soldiers were sorry," Hassan said.

    "They believed it was a van of suicide bombers," Furbush said.

    Hassan, his wife, his father and a brother were airlifted to the MASH unit.

    Three doctors and three nurses worked on the father for four hours but he died despite their efforts.

    Today, Hassan and his wife remain at the unit. He has staples in his head. She has a mangled hand and shrapnel in her face and shoulder.

    Major Scott McDannold, an anaesthesiologist, said Hassan's brother, lying nearby, wouldn't make it. He is on a respirator with a broken neck.

    On March 16, Hassan and his family began to harvest tomatoes, cucumbers, scallions and eggplant. It was a healthy crop, and they expected a good year.

    "We had hope," he said. "But then you Americans came to bring us democracy and our hope ended."

    Lamea is nine months pregnant.

    "It would be better not to have the baby," she said.

    "Our lives are over."

    KRT

  • amac
    amac

    That is so upsetting. The last lines of that article kill me. Where was this article taken from?

  • Pleasuredome
    Pleasuredome

    somebody should have told him that the only freedom the US would bring is freedom of the soul from the body.

  • Xander
    Xander
    "We had hope," he said. "But then you Americans came to bring us democracy and our hope ended."
    Lamea is nine months pregnant.
    "It would be better not to have the baby," she said.
    "Our lives are over."

    Ah, but at least we got the oil wells, so it wasn't so bad, after all!

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    Tougher U.S. approach may hike death toll Spate of Iraqi deaths creates backlash against coalition

    Peter Goodspeed
    National Post, with files from news services

    KUWAIT CITY - Faced with suicide bombers posing as motorists and Iraqi soldiers dressed as ordinary citizens, the U.S. has imposed tough new measures which could see a sharp increase in the civilian casualty rate in this war.

    Despite the U.S.-led coalition's attempts to limit civilian casualties, the mounting death toll in Iraq is stoking Arab anger across the Middle East and Europe and damaging coalition attempts to win the "hearts and minds" of ordinary Iraqis.

    At least nine civilians have been killed at three checkpoints in southern and central Iraq since Monday by U.S. soldiers who fear suicide bombers.

    Iraqi officials said yesterday that 15 members of a single Iraqi family were killed when their pickup truck was blown apart by a rocket from an Apache helicopter near Hilla, a farming community 80 kilometres south of Baghdad.

    The Iraqi government claims nearly 600 civilians have been killed, and thousands injured, since the war began, though that figure is impossible to verify.

    In Brussels, the European Commission yesterday called the checkpoint killings "a horrible and tragic incident... It is not an isolated incident. Too many civilians have already lost their lives in this war."

    U.S. troops have been on edge since a suicide car-bomb attack at a checkpoint south of Karbala on Saturday killed four soldiers. Officials have ordered tighter restrictions at checkpoints, saying vehicles will no longer be permitted to cross through military convoys.

    Any vehicle blocking traffic will be rolled over.

    Soldiers have also been told that if civilians with hands in their pockets approach troops and fail to respond, first to a shouted command and then to a warning shot, they will be killed.

    U.S. officials defended the tough new measures as necessary, saying they are being targeted by Iraqi militiamen disguised as civilians who stage suicide attacks or pretend to surrender and then open fire.

    At a daily briefing in Qatar, Brigadier-General Vince Brooks defended the soldiers' action: "In all cases, in checkpoints and otherwise, we maintain the right to self-defence.

    "We've increased vigilance because of the tactics of Iraqi death squads," he added. "While we regret the loss of civilian lives, they remain unavoidable."

    The latest incident at Hilla, believed by the U.S.-led coalition to be home to a camp for Saddam Fedayeen, involved a family fleeing fighting between Iraqi forces and the coalition in Nasiriya.

    A U.S. helicopter fired on their truck around 6 p.m., Iraqi officials said.

    The officials took reporters to the city, where Razek al-Kazem al-Khafaj, the only survivor of the attack, told reporters the dead included his wife, his six children, his father, mother and three brothers and their wives.

    Weeping over 15 rough-hewn coffins, he moaned: "Which one of them should I cry on?" and threw sand in his eyes as a sign of mourning.

    Murtada Abbas, a hospital director in Hilla, near where the Khafaj family died, said 33 civilians, including children, were killed and 310 wounded in bombing yesterday around the Nader residential area on the southern outskirts of the farming town.

    U.S. Marines, who are marching on Baghdad, took a key canal bridge in the Hilla area and captured some 50 Iraqi prisoners in the fighting.

    The U.S. Central Command in Qatar said it had no initial evidence of the Apache attack.

    "Preliminary investigation by U.S. Central Command has not turned up any evidence of this alleged incident. However, command officials are continuing to look into the allegation," it said in a statement.

    U.S. military officials have also begun an investigation into the killing of at least seven women and children near Najaf, in central Iraq, when a four-wheel-drive van carrying as many as 15 people allegedly failed to stop at a checkpoint.

    Nearby, yet another man died, while his wife watched, as soldiers fired on their car at another checkpoint.

    And in another checkpoint shooting yesterday, U.S. Marines killed an unarmed Iraqi south of Baghdad. Soldiers said they fired on a pick-up truck that sped toward them outside the southern town of Shatra, killing the driver and injuring his passenger.

    In the Najaf case, in which the women and children died, officials at Central Command said soldiers had "exercised considerable restraint" when the driver failed to stop at the checkpoint.

    The soldiers had called on the driver to halt and then fired warning shots.

    "As a last resort, the soldier fired into the passenger compartment of the vehicle," officials said.

    Jim Wilkinson, spokesman for U.S. Commander General Tommy Franks, described the deaths as a "tragedy." But he said the incidents were indicative of a bigger problem -- "the tactics of terrorism being employed by the regime death squads."

    A Washington Post reporter, who was at the scene of the Najaf shooting, said 10 Iraqis were killed in the incident, including five children.

    Moments after the shooting, a U.S. Army captain accused his troops of not having fired warning shots quickly enough, the newspaper said.

    The newspaper said a crowded Toyota van approached a road block guarded by two Bradley armoured fighting vehicles around 4:30 p.m. on Monday. A captain commanding the platoon ordered his men to fire a warning shot when the vehicle ignored a hand signal to stay back.

    As the vehicle kept coming the captain told the platoon to shoot a machine gun round into the van's radiator.

    "'Stop [messing] around!' Captain Ronny Johnson yelled into the company radio network when he still saw no action being taken," the newspaper reported.

    "Finally, he shouted at the top of his voice, 'Stop him, Red 1, stop him!'

    "That order was immediately followed by the loud reports of 25 mm cannon fire from one or more of the platoon's Bradleys. About half a dozen shots were heard in all.

    "'Cease fire!' Johnson yelled over the radio. Then, as he peered into his binoculars from the intersection on Highway 9, he roared at the platoon leader, 'You just [expletive] killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!' "

    Military authorities have confirmed at least 70 war-related deaths among U.S. and British troops since fighting began on March 19. The U.S. Defence Department has released the names of 44 U.S. servicemen who have died; 17 others are listed as missing and seven are prisoners of war.

    Britain's Ministry of Defence has confirmed 27 dead.

    In other incidents yesterday, U.S. officials said, an Iraqi prisoner was shot to death after he reached for a Marine's rifle while being questioned.

    In Kuwait, U.S. soldiers shot and wounded the driver of a car that burst past a checkpoint into a base near the Iraqi border after midnight. Kuwaiti officials said the man was a Kuwaiti army captain hurrying to work.

    © Copyright 2003 National Post

  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound

    I wonder how the bushtonians would feel, if this is how the police treated civilians here.

  • jelly
    jelly

    Hopefully they soldiers didnt use radioactive bullets, if they had the kids might have mutated into 'flipper babies'.

    Terry

  • tyydyy
    tyydyy

    You know what I heard in that report? I heard what the reporter didn't want to say. I know that no one will say it. I will say it. These people speeding through or up to a military checkpoint during a war are prime canditates for The Darwin Awards. This reporter tries to make these people sound like such innocent victims instead of what they really were.............Stupid Victims.

    Let me tell you a story from my Stupid Days. I was speeding one night in Mexico. In Mexico they have road blocks/checkpoints where the soldiers, with fingers on the triggers of their machine guns would ask you if you were carrying any guns. That night there was a line of trucks blocking my view and I didn't see the flares until I was right on them. There was no way I could stop in time. I blew right through. I fully expected the bullets to be flying. They didn't fire at me but that was not during a state of war. Let me tell you, I would never have been speeding like that in a time of war in which I was the enemy of the army at the checkpoint.

    TimB

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