SEE THE REAL FACE OF THE WAR IN IRAQ, SEE THE HORROR

by justhuman 102 Replies latest social current

Azalo

Historical revisionism = U.S.A.
Xena

Perhaps the problem that many Americans see as "America bashing" is that we see a total unwillingness or inability for many Americans to ever admit that their country has done or can ever do anything wrong.

lol exactly how MANY Americans do you know???? I am not sure how many people who posted to this thread that are americans, but I know a few who are, myself, teejay, BG, Dakota, heathen, Yeru and among us is a great variety of opinions and imput on this war....and a few of us who did admit that we are ashamed of some of the acts commited by American in it's past. You have voiced your disgust of people who paint with a broad brush but don't seem to mind taking up that same brush when it suits your views or agenda.
What I see is a BRITISH man who appears to be in denial that is OWN country is part of this war also...hhhmmm??? lol do we even want to go into some of the British past? hhhmmm? Think Ireland...India...just to name a few. Don't ya'll have a rep for being cold hearted, stuffy, narrow minded, snotty people???? Or is that just MOST of you?
Like I have said several times I am not a rabid American, but when you say things about Americans in general, I feel that you are speaking about ME as an American and I take issue with your words. If you have a problem with someone IN America then say so, but trust me you don't know MANY Americans, lol heck I live in America and I don't know MANY Americans, I know the ones in my general area and trust me viewpoints, ideas and culture are different all over America. Not to mention how each INDIVIDUAL is influnced by their upbringing and a mulititude of different aspects.
Here is an idea, instead of viewing people as Americans or Britians or basing your assumptions about them on where they happen to live why not deal with them on an INDIVIDUAL basis of who they are?
Simon

However, how many kill thousands, and thousands of their own

Does it matter if they keill thousands of their own or thousands of others? Is Hiroshima Ok or less of a crime because those innocent civiliant weren't American?
lol exactly how MANY Americans do you know????
Quite a few but I am going off the general view of the population as portrayed through the media (including your own). I may be totally wrong about how Americans view the war (though I suspect I am not).
I am not sure how many people who posted to this thread that are americans, but I know a few who are, myself, teejay, BG, Dakota, heathen, Yeru and among us is a great variety of opinions and imput on this war....and a few of us who did admit that we are ashamed of some of the acts commited by American in it's past. You have voiced your disgust of people who paint with a broad brush but don't seem to mind taking up that same brush when it suits your views or agenda.
I am sorry if you think I was being too general. I did say "many Americans", not all. However, I do believe that probably the majority do not have a fair and balanced view of their own country and what it has done or are unwilling to accept it even if they do. There is an excuse or reason for everything when some things really are inexcusable. In itself this would not be so bad but combined with the propensity to point the finger at others who do exactly the same thing (or sometimes less) and you see where the problems begin ...
What I see is a BRITISH man who appears to be in denial that is OWN country is part of this war also...hhhmmm??? lol do we even want to go into some of the British past? hhhmmm? Think Ireland...India...just to name a few. Don't ya'll have a rep for being cold hearted, stuffy, narrow minded, snotty people???? Or is that just MOST of you?
No, this is not what I put. Britain is obviously the junior partner in this but a partner none-the-less. If you read what I posted you will see that I am first to admit our own shortcomings:
"Nearly all countries have done bad things and I'll be the first to stand up and say Britain has committed attrocities which we are ashamed of"
What I was highlighting though was the perculiarly American penchant for believing that all that eminates from America is good and that no wrong-doing is ever done (in a military context). The article I linked to explained it much better than I can.
Like I have said several times I am not a rabid American, but when you say things about Americans in general, I feel that you are speaking about ME as an American and I take issue with your words. If you have a problem with someone IN America then say so, but trust me you don't know MANY Americans, lol heck I live in America and I don't know MANY Americans, I know the ones in my general area and trust me viewpoints, ideas and culture are different all over America. Not to mention how each INDIVIDUAL is influnced by their upbringing and a mulititude of different aspects.
Again, I apologise if I was generalising too much, this was not my intention. However, I'd be interested in specifics of what you take exception to. This illustrates the whole gist of what I am talking about - it seems no view of America can be proffered other than the "official" one without people getting upset and imagining they are being attacked.
Here is an idea, instead of viewing people as Americans or Britians or basing your assumptions about them on where they happen to live why not deal with them on an INDIVIDUAL basis of who they are?
Well, I don't really have the time to deal with them all one at a time, LOL, I would be extremely surprised if my comments were not representative of a large part of the population. The fact that so many other people make similar comments would back this up IMHO. Perhaps it is something we see in Americans but they cannot or do not want to see in themselves?
Maybe, as I said, it is like the WTS - you are brought up to believe a certain thing and to think about the "mother organisation" in a certain way and conditioned to react / defend without really listening and analysing the arguments as to wether they are in fact true or not. Remember how we used to defend the WTS if anyone criticised it? I can see similar thought processes in action.
Abaddon

rmayer; PLEASE, I mean PLEASE, go learn some history;
While this is not popular and is always overlooked. I must say that as bad as it was to use the nukes in Japan, it sure as hell ended that part of the war to allow us to concentrate on saving Europes ass from the Nazis now didn't it??
WWII in Europe ended BEFORE WWII ended in Asia. They teach this at High School.
I really think before you pretend you have a valid opinion you make sure you do not make errors that show you don't really have a clue what you're talking about.
justhuman; whilst the photos you post are genuine, I think most of us actually realise the damage a large calibre round can do to a child's head. You can do what you like, but your efforts to sensationalise war when any fool knows that war is bad is rather silly.
You should also bear in mind that the website you draw that information from is run by David Icke. If you think someone who thinks that the British Royal family are alien reptiles is a good source of information, well... poor you...
xena;
ol exactly how MANY Americans do you know???? I am not sure how many people who posted to this thread that are americans, but I know a few who are, myself, teejay, BG, Dakota, heathen, Yeru and among us is a great variety of opinions and imput on this war....and a few of us who did admit that we are ashamed of some of the acts commited by American in it's past. You have voiced your disgust of people who paint with a broad brush but don't seem to mind taking up that same brush when it suits your views or agenda.
Simon said;
Perhaps the problem that many Americans see as "America bashing" is that we see a total unwillingness or inability for many Americans to ever admit that their country has done or can ever do anything wrong.
xena, Simon used the word 'many'. This does not mean all, but implies a majority. In your own post you use the word 'few', which does not mean all, implies a minority, and is a good opposite word to many. Why are you getting pissy with him when he's saying what you've admitted to?
xena continues;
What I see is a BRITISH man who appears to be in denial that is OWN country is part of this war also...hhhmmm??? lol do we even want to go into some of the British past? hhhmmm? Think Ireland...India...just to name a few. Don't ya'll have a rep for being cold hearted, stuffy, narrow minded, snotty people???? Or is that just MOST of you?
Simon said;
Nearly all countries have done bad things and I'll be the first to stand up and say Britain has committed attrocities which we are ashamed of, I'm sure other people in other countries will too. Yet it is very rare to hear an American expres something like this - everything they do is "right" and justified even if they later change to the totally opposite side, they are still "right" then. Like doctrinal flip-flops but no admittance of change or error.
Again xena, he admits Britian is as bad, which is what you point out. Why are you getting so angry when he's agreeing with you?
xena carries on;
Like I have said several times I am not a rabid American, but when you say things about Americans in general, I feel that you are speaking about ME as an American and I take issue with your words. If you have a problem with someone IN America then say so, but trust me you don't know MANY Americans, lol heck I live in America and I don't know MANY Americans, I know the ones in my general area and trust me viewpoints, ideas and culture are different all over America. Not to mention how each INDIVIDUAL is influnced by their upbringing and a mulititude of different aspects.
Which is really funny, as Simon said;
Listening to some people reminds me so much of the Watchtower and it's followers - anything and everything is justified and "explained". I wonder if this common mindset is what makes the WTS so successful in the USA compared to the rest of the world?
You can say you are not a rabid American all you like. But when you actually miss what someone is saying because you are leaping to defend fellow American's who were under attack (even when they weren't), I think you are possibly being a hasty American, even if you are not rabid. Possibly your national pride is doing the answering; hell, I've read your posts before, and you certainly weren't reflecting on those answers just now the way you have on other subjects.
No country in Europe has a phrase anywhere remotely like 'My Country Right Or Wrong'. I have never heard a European say in an interview that they respect the head of state and will support him no matter what - but I have heard American's say that about the President.
SOME Americans DO have a problem admitting their country can be at fault. I don't know what you do to kids when they are at school, but it is effective, as patriotism is a horse of a different colour in the USA.
When patriotism is so fervent it disengages sensible consideration of the facts, then it is out of balance. I think that's why Simon sees hints of cultish behaviour in excessive patriotism; I certainly do.
Xena

Quite a few but I am going off the general view of the population as portrayed through the media (including your own). I may be totally wrong about how Americans view the war (though I suspect I am not).

lol so our media is ok with you when it supports what you want to believe about us. funny I judge people from what I actually KNOW about them personally and I tend to try and not make generalizations about groups....you know like the WT does about apostates...they are all bad you know or at least MOST of them I mean they SUSPECT it must be so...therefore it must be..
You have obviously made up your mind about MOST americans so I don't really feel that any further discussion is really needed. lol I am just glad MOST Brits aren't so narrow minded. Or at least the ones *I* know.
Abaddon I wonder how you would have responded if he had said something along the lines of "MOST blacks are a certain way"? It's ok to bash but only when it is a group of people we don't actually LIKE huh? Lumping the majority of people together due to their backround is well stupid no matter who it is or how you do it. Sorry but that is my opinion.
You are right he did admit to some Brit atrocities, but I guess it appeared to me he glossed them over, my bad though on that issue.
lol and you missed my point, I am not so much as leaping to the defence of fellow Americans as leaping to my own defence, as an American..one of uumm MANY...and as one of the Americans on this thread that doesn't strictly follow the Simon peace party line I felt a bit insulted by what he said. Was I being to sensitive? Perhaps but this is a sensitive issues and personally I don't feel it makes it any better for relations to protray MOST Americans as he did. I live here and I would wager since my neighbors are American, my co-workers are American, my family is American, I am a better judge of Americans and how they feel. True you might say I am prejuduced, but then again you might be wrong.
As for this comment:
I've read your posts before, and you certainly weren't reflecting on those answers just now the way you have on other subjects.
I would have to say you have either mistaken me for someone else or you are a mistaken in what you read.
And this:
SOME Americans DO have a problem admitting their country can be at fault.
is a correct statement.
Good day gentlemen.
teejay

Simon said “many”:
Perhaps the problem that many Americans see as "America bashing" is that we see a total unwillingness or inability for many Americans to ever admit that their country has done or can ever do anything wrong.

Simon used the word 'many'. This does not mean all, but implies a majority. – Abaddon (emphasis teejay's)

I think Abaddon hoped to clarify what Simon said. Unfortunately, it had the opposite effect. “Many” does NOT “imply a majority.” It means “ a large, indefinite number. ”
Simon’s right, of course. I myself know “many” of my fellow Americans who abjectly refuse to see anything wrong at all about Bush, the war, etc. Unlike you, Sweetie, they might very well be termed “rabid”.
FWIW.
dubla

FACT: Things are not being reported very well in the USA and are very "one sided". We know from talking to friends over there who are amazed at the things we tell them have been on the news here.

i like how the word fact is followed up here with an opinion.....tricky. afa the u.s. media being "one sided", have you watched cnn at all? i agree its one sided....AGAINST the war. yesterday a few of my friends were over, and we checked out cnn for a bit.....it was simply amazing how every main point that was being stressed had to do with civilian casualties, friendly fire, opposition to the war, etc.......its expected to be this way, as cnn has always been notoriously left handed.....but i cant see how the antiwar crowd complains about this type of reporting. if youd like to see some ammunition against the u.s. and their handling of the war, just turn on cnn for an hour.
i keep hearing these constant complaints about reporting, media propaganda, bias, etc..........the actual FACT is: information on this war is getting to the population at record speeds, and todays technology dictates that this is the most widely covered war in history. a battle takes place, and 10 minutes later there are pictures on the internet and blasted all over the news channels. civilians get killed, and we know about it immediately. with information moving at light speed, it is impossible to "cover up" anything that happens in this war. cnn even shows al jazeera news reports on a regular basis! there are reporters embedded, giving live reports as the action takes place, including civilian casualties, and still we get the constant screams of "propaganda!"...............i guess until we get actual footage of civilian arms and legs getting torn from their bodies, we will still have cries for fair coverage.
aa
expatbrit

Fortunately, we have the balanced coverage from the Iraqi Information Ministry....lol
Iraq's Information Minister, Mohammed Saeed Sahaf, has denied US troops are in Baghdad.
His comments were carried on al-Jazeera television, whom he accused of spreading American propaganda.
Here is the text of what he said:

"There are no American infidels in Baghdad. Never!
"They tried to bring a small number of tanks and personnel carriers in through al-Durah but they were surrounded and most of their infidels had their throats cut. "We made them drink poison last night [Sunday] and Saddam Hussein's soldiers and his great forces gave the Americans a lesson which will not be forgotten by history. Truly.
"On this occasion, I am not going to mention the number of the infidels who were killed and the number of destroyed vehicles. The operation continues.
"I can say, and I am responsible for what I am saying, that they have started to commit suicide under the walls of Baghdad. We will encourage them to commit more suicides quickly.
"We defeated them yesterday. God willing, I will provide you with more information. I swear by God, I swear by God, those who are staying in Washington and London have thrown these mercenaries in a crematorium.
"As President Saddam Hussein said: God will roast their stomachs in hell at the hands of Iraqis.
"This is an Arab expression, because the killing which they witnessed yesterday will be a lesson to these mercenaries and to the war criminals in Washington and London.
'Stupid' attack
"Their infidels are committing suicide in their hundreds under the walls of Baghdad. The battle was fierce and God granted his soldiers victory. He granted heroic Iraqis victory. The battle is continuing on the main fronts.
"Be reassured, Baghdad is safe, fortified and great.
"The inhabitants of Baghdad are heroes. They told you that there was fighting at al-Rashid Hotel and the Information Ministry.
"I have heard an al-Jazeera correspondent as if it was confirming that.
"It is unfortunate. I was at the Information Ministry. I went to the al-Rashid Hotel. I salute the soldiers and I salute the Baathists, the heroes. I salute the citizens who came out of their homes with rifles.
"Please, please! The Americans are relying on what I called yesterday a desperate and stupid method.
'Desperate Americans'
"Just look carefully, I only want you to look carefully. Do not repeat the lies of liars. Do not become like them. Once again, I blame al-Jazeera before it ascertains what takes place. Please, make sure of what you say and do not play such a role.
"Search for the truth. I tell you things and I always ask you to verify what I say. I told you yesterday that there was an attack and a retreat at Saddam's airport.
"What have the desperate Americans done? They said that their soldiers have occupied the airport since the beginning of the attack.
"They had their forces at the VIP lounge just to say that leader Saddam Hussein used to frequent this place. See how petty and lowly these Americans are?
"They transformed the issue into an issue of whether Saddam Hussein, this great leader, uses this building or not. Does he use this bed or not?
'Tragedy of their soldiers'
"I believe these servile people deserve contempt only. This is an ongoing war. They attack a country and a people. They have become involved with a brave and fighting people and a strong and ironclad national regime.
"In order to deceive you and deceive me - they believe they can do so - they went to the VIP lounge to divert attention from their villains who were slaughtered on the ground.
"They speak about buildings and walls instead of a VIP lounge. Instead of showing the tragedy of their soldiers, they speak about a lounge - does a lounge represent the dignity of a people?
"Are these the Americans? People remain silent and placate the Americans. By God, they only deserve scorn. We slaughtered them yesterday and we will continue to slaughter them.
"Therefore, please rest assured. We caused you some inconvenience because from this place we destroyed this little number of armoured vehicles and tanks, which came from al-Durah."
freedom96

Indeed, those are sad pictures of the reality of war.
By the way, anyone here have pictures of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's that Saddam has personally killed?
Hmmmm? All those gassed and blown up? All those sad children, parents, etc?
No????
Yes, war sucks. No doubt about it. But what Saddam has done for years is worse, and now it will stop. Yes, millions now living will continue to live because Saddam will be removed from power.
Abaddon

xena; shall we actually bring in the stats for this, 'cause I'm pretty damn sure there is a significant difference between American attitudes towards patriotism and European attitudes towards patriotism?
I'm sure you think you're right, but all you are arguing is is against stereotypes, whilst bringing in race to muddy the waters (I have a train to catch, otherwise I'd detail that, but nasty technique, guilt by association, really cheap actually)and failing to address the points I made about characteristic facets of American patriotism.
Rather than get lost in a meangless exchange of opinions, let's see what DATA we can use to support our opposing views.
I'm off home now. If you want to play, let me know on this thread and I'll respond tomorrow. I suggest the question we try to prove or disprove is this;
"There is a significant difference in the characteristics of patriotism bewtenn the USA and Europe."

SEE THE REAL FACE OF THE WAR IN IRAQ, SEE THE HORROR

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