Rubber Bullets Used On Oakland War Protesters

by Pleasuredome 47 Replies latest social current

  • dubla
    dubla

    robyn-

    In answer to your first question, no. I honestly do not think that Iraq will be more peaceful for the Iraqi people.

    can i push you on that one a bit? why dont you think it will be a more peaceful country in the long run? what types of violence do you think will replace saddams genocidal rule? will it be worse? more violent? will the new government oppress the people just as much or more as saddams government?

    Also, I think that they will wind up hating the infidels who forced democracy on them.
    i keep hearing this argument, even as i witness a huge crowd of iraqis dancing and cheering in the streets of baghdad this morning. can i push you on that one as well? i asked this question on another thread, and got no answer....so here goes.......how are we "forcing" democracy on iraq? is it their true "culture and tradition" to have a murderous dictator, rather than a popular voice? will they be worse off as a people by having a voice in how their government is run? is it just that they would rather sit back and be dictated to...and thus they will "hate" us for their newfound opportunity to speak?
    In answer to your other question. Yes. It gets the point across. Besides, all causes need martyrs.

    to me they are complete hypocrites, but i understand what you are saying, and respect your opinion.

    aa

  • Simon
    Simon

    I think there are degrees of force which should be appropriate to any crime.

    If someone was holding up a bank with a gun then I'd expect them to be shot. You wouldn't expect to be shot for dropping litter.

    To use "riot control" tactics to stop people protesting does seema little heavy handed. I would be interested to know from what level the orders came from.

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    Dubla,

    Please see my above response to Avishai, while I prepare my answers to you. It contains some of the answers that you asked about the protesters. My response to you may take a while. Thanks for your questions. I will answer them as best I can, after I have a cuppa.

    BTW, I can assure you that I am no hypocrite. It's getting dangerous to protest and yet some of us are still doing it. What is hypocritical about that?

    Robyn

  • dubla
    dubla

    simon-

    To use "riot control" tactics to stop people protesting does seema little heavy handed.

    i think so too, as i already said the police overreacted.....but......to play devils advocate, "riot control" tactics should probably be used if a protest is turning into a "riot", right? and when rocks and bolts come hurling out of a crowd, im sure its hard to tell from the officers standpoint if it indeed is turning into a riot, or if its just one or two people getting violent. judgement calls like this almost always end in criticism of the police, and this time they probably deserve it......the protestors that decided to get violent were no doubt partly to blame though.

    robyn-

    BTW, I can assure you that I am no hypocrite. It's getting dangerous to protest and yet some of us are still doing it. What is hypocritical about that?

    i dont think protesting is hypocritical in and of itself...and i was certainly not trying to label you a hypocrite. i was labeling the violent protestors as hypocrites...and i stand by that. you cant go around causing more violence in order to bring attention to the "peace" cause without looking hypocritical, imo.

    and no rush on the responses....ill appreciate reading them, thanks.

    aa

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    Dubla,

    If we help Iraq re-build, and I think that we will because the US has other interests in Iraq besides liberating the Iraqis, I think that our government will receive all manner of opposition. I know it is probably not acceptable to you to say that l I have a strong gut feeling about it.

    The Iraqis are not like you and me and the rest of western, Christian civilization. Have you read the Quran? I did right after 9-11. Whereas, we (Christians and Jews) are considered to be sisters of the book, the Quran is very specific, if we attack them, they are to fight us to the death, to kill us by any means possible. Mohammed was very specific about this. Our society is viewed by the more fundamental factions of Islam to be Satanic. WE are their "axis of evil". Fundies are a problem in any society.

    As far as oppression goes, you were once a JW. If the society oppressed you in God's name, you more than likely accepted it as being God's word and did your best to be obedient. Those who were in "the truth" looked with fear upon those who weren't. Face it, many people like to be told how to worship Jehovah, Allah, etc. At one time, you would have gladly accepted oppression if it would protect you from God's wrath. You have grown past that now but it probably took you years even with the freedom of thought that you enjoy, for the most part, in the US. But how do you expect the Iraqis to suddenly change their world view after thousands of years of "business as usual"?

    Remember Iran? The shah? The shah was the US's buddy. The Iranians ran his butt out of the country and replaced him with the Ayatollah. Back in the 70's I had a couple of male friends who were from "Persia" and they were in the US to attend college. They were pleased to be here. But when the problems started between Iran and the US, they thought nothing of returning to their home country to take up arms, if needed. I could never understand that. And that is the problem we are facing now. We do not understand the Iraqis. To assume that they will calmly accept rule by the infidel is to underestimate them and to dismiss any sentiments that they may have towards us as being unimportant.

    Because we do not consider their feelings about western civilization to be important, we are showing basic disrespect to their way of life. This will be only the beginning of the disrespect that they will perceive to be coming from us.

    Change can be violent. Giving birth is a violent act. There is a lot of screaming, moaning, crying and blood and don't forget about the afterbirth. The afterbirth is going to be hell in Iraq. Some will not be pleased. They will not take the changes to their way of life lightly.

    Yes, we see smiling Iraqis on our sound bytes. IMO, this is propaganda. These people are terrified of us. If soldiers invaded my city, I might be inclined to seem agreeable too. Especially if it meant saving my family. But the minute their back was turned, I would be doing everything within my power to undermine them, all the while smiling to their faces and their loaded guns.

    Will it be more violent? Well, imo, it is pretty violent now. I don't see how it can get more violent. But, covertly, it could get to be troublesome. Look at the IRA. In the past, they have been a violent pain in the ass for the British. I would not be surprised to see similar acts occurring in Iraq.

    As far as the new government oppressing the Iraqi people as much or more than Saddam, I don't know the answer to that. It really isn't that important. What is important is how the Iraqis perceive their oppression. The Iraqis may perceive the new government to be Satanic. If so, they will truly feel that they are being more oppressed on a soul level. This can be worse than physical oppression.

    Dubla, I have a visitor coming in from out of town tomorrow and I am very busy today. I hope that some of your questions have been answered. I know that you will probably not agree with them but I do not feel that our agreement is important. I am endeavoring to see the "other side's" viewpoint. I appreciate your respect towards "our side".

    I will attempt to explain what is going on in this country as far as protests are concerned at a later time. Please remember though, that there are basically 2 protests going on. One is to protest the war in Iraq. The undercurrent is to protest the personal liberties that we see as being under attack.

    Have a nice weekend.

    Love,

    Robyn

  • dolphman
    dolphman

    Check out this headline from Iraq a few years ago:

    (from the Bahgdad post)

    REAL BULLETS USED ON ANTI-BAATH PARTY PROTESTERS...100s KILLED

  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound
    Check out this headline from Iraq a few years ago:

    (from the Bahgdad post)

    REAL BULLETS USED ON ANTI-BAATH PARTY PROTESTERS...100s KILLED

    Your point? Are you saying this is worse, so we should just shut up, I'm sure the communist party in china has a job for you.

  • avishai
    avishai
    I have the blood of my ancestors boiling within me. My ancestors who settled in Jamestown. An ancestor that signed the Declaration of Independence, ancestors who fought and died in the American Revolution, a distant cousin who was president. My family has given their blood, sweat, and toil to keep America free. We have always been considered rebels. You can thank my family as well as others that you can enjoy what little liberties we still have.

    So? I have similar blood. Which, as far as I, as a person, am concerned, means exactly, dick.

    Why is it that you pro war people think that we antis are non violent?

    When did I say I was "pro war"?

    The revolution, when it happens, is not going to be a love in

    Does'nt this make YOU pro war?

    Our rights and liberties are being torn away from us

    I agree.

    Imagine if guns were to be outlawed in the US. Do you think the NRA people will calmly give up their rights to bear arms? Not likely.

    Hell no. What do you think, TH?

    Nobody wants it to come down to civil disobedience or violence. But make no mistake, some are prepared to die to ensure that your personal liberties remain.
    Your insinuating that I'm not? Robdar, I really, really resent the superior, elitist, name dropping, "I'm better than you are due to #1, my ancestry, and #2, my beliefs" tone of your post.
  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound
    Hell no. What do you think, TH?

    They'd have to pry my gun, out of my cold dead hands.

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    Robdar, I really, really resent the superior, elitist, name dropping, "I'm better than you are due to #1, my ancestry, and #2, my beliefs" tone of your post.

    Avishai,

    You can take insult where you like it. And it's pretty obvious that you look for it. There was no "superior, elitist, name dropping" although I could drop names, well recognized names from almost 400 years of American history. All I did was state facts. I answered your question. If you read in my post that I somehow think that I am superior to you, which I never said, then that is your problem. Why should I try to feel superior to you? By your comments, you come across as having an inferiority complex. And then resent me because I do not. This is your problem, not mine.

    Here is where you say that you are pro war: For once, We're doing the right thing.

    Does'nt this make YOU pro war?

    Heh, I never said I wasn't pro war. I am against the WAR IN IRAQ.

    You said: "So? I have similar blood. Which, as far as I, as a person, am concerned, means exactly, dick". Really? Your comments sound as if it bothers you quite a bit. You come across as envious. Again, this is not my problem.

    If you have similar blood lines, I think that would be delightful. We could possibly be related. Especially if your family settled Jamestown.

    Robyn

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