Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman 315 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • towerwatchman
    towerwatchman

    to unsure

    Maybe rewording it might make it clear.

    Here is the problem. If the cause was non cognitive [parallel universe] and sufficient to produce the effect [us] then if the cause is there [parallel universe] the effect [us] must be there also.

    Now the cause of the universe is permanently there [parallel universe], since it is timeless. So why isn't the universe [our] permanently there as well, why did the universe [our] come into being only billions years ago, why isn't it as permanent as its cause [parallel universe]?

    In other words if the cause is there [us] why is the effect not there also [parallel universe]? If the effect is eternal [parallel universe] why is the cause not eternal [us]?

    Answer to this problem must be that the cause is a personal being with freedom of the will.

    His creating the universe is a free act independent of any prior condition.

    So His act of creating can be something spontaneous and new.

    So in my view, then, God existing alone without the universe is changeless and timeless.

    His free act of creation is simultaneous with the universe coming into being. Therefore, God enters into time when He creates the universe.

  • towerwatchman
    towerwatchman

    stephenmyers

    Scientists have proven that evolution is a fact.

    The scientific method is an orderly method used by scientist to solve problems, in which a recognized problem is subjected to thorough investigation, and the resulting facts and observations are analyzed, formulated in the hypothesis, and subjected to verification by means of experiments and further observation.

    Has anyone observed the evolution of a species? Charles Darwin did little experimental science. He did make several descriptive studies of barnacles and worms and some experimental studies about how species spread through seed dispersal and other processes. Yet his masterpiece, [On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection] contains neither a single mathematical equation nor any report of original experimental research. What we have is micro evolution [the beaks of finches changing size and shape] passed as proof of macro evolution [man evolving from a chimp].

    I don't understand what you mean that evolution is metaphysical.

    Metaphysics = the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.

    Since there is no evidence for macro evolution or the neo Darwinian theory of first life it becomes more philosophical than science.

    Do you not think that natural selection occurs in living things? If not why not?

    The theory of Natural Selection promotes that the species that survives is the fittest, and the fittest is the species that survives. What does Natural Selection identify as the determining factor of the survival of the fittest? Whatever gave the surviving form the edge over the extinct on is the determining factor[s]. Since Natural Selection has become an all-purpose explanation of anything and everything, it becomes an explanation of nothing. Just about any characteristic can be either advantageous or dis advantageous depending upon the surrounding environmental conditions the subject is found.

    Based on the species thriving we can assume a characteristic to be advantageous to it, but in most cases it is impossible to identify the advantage independently of the outcome; therefore any advantage can also be a disadvantage. Simply put, the historical record only confirms one advantage, success in reproduction. Following Natural Selection, the individual which reproduce the most offspring must have the qualities required for producing the most offspring, or the fittest individuals in a population.

  • Brainfloss
    Brainfloss

    "BEFORE WE UNDERSTAND SCIENCE, IT IS NATURAL TO BELIEVE THAT GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE. BUT NOW SCIENCE OFFERS A MORE CONVINCING EXPLANATION. WHAT I MEANT BY 'WE WOULD KNOW THE MIND OF GOD' IS, WE WOULD KNOW EVERYTHING THAT GOD WOULD KNOW, IF THERE WERE A GOD, WHICH THERE ISN'T. I'M AN ATHEIST."

    STEPHEN hawking


    probably best not to quote him to prove existance of god.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    By golly, you sure is smart!

  • cofty
    cofty
    What we have is micro evolution [the beaks of finches changing size and shape] passed as proof of macro evolution [man evolving from a chimp]. _ WTM

    When wilfully ignorant creationists talk about men evolving from chimps wise people just smile condescendingly and walk away.

  • unsure
    unsure

    Now the cause of the universe is permanently there [parallel universe], since it is timeless. So why isn't the universe [our] permanently there as well, why did the universe [our] come into being only billions years ago, why isn't it as permanent as its cause [parallel universe]?

    In other words if the cause is there [us] why is the effect not there also [parallel universe]? If the effect is eternal [parallel universe] why is the cause not eternal [us]?

    You can substitute [God] in place of [parallel universe] in most cases in your quote above.

    I will make that substitution and ask you; if the cause is there [us] why is the effect not there also [God]? If the effect is eternal [God] why is the cause not eternal [us]?

    The only difference between what I'm proposing vs what you are proposing is congnition. I'm failing to see why cognition is a factor.

    I'm genuinely interested in understanding this because I want to believe but as long as there are other plausible answers, I will remain unsure.

  • towerwatchman
    towerwatchman

    Brainfloss

    probably best not to quote him to prove existance of god.

    What there any deceit in the quote?

  • Brainfloss
    Brainfloss
    No deceit. It's just that on a few occasions in this topic you have put forward Hawking as an expert, citing his work to prove athieism is wrong. The expert you cite is a self proclaimed Athiest. If he is indeed the expert you say possibly you are misunderstanding his work.
  • WhatshallIcallmyself
    WhatshallIcallmyself

    "Everything that begins to exist has a cause. We know that the universe had a beginning" - TWM

    We don't know the universe had a beginning... We can only trace the expansion back so far after which there is only speculation. You are suffering from the gigo effect, presumably brought about by reading creationist literature and believing it to be true.

  • Finkelstein

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