NO SUPPORT FOR EXJWS DRAFTED IN UKRAINE (page 3)

Gorb

Ukraine started war in 2014, that's the true story.

An internal Sovjet conflict.

Not my war.

Gorby

@Riley: so what is the off-ramp then, because Russia has expended very little in this war, whereas Ukraine has had a significant portion of its men leave or die. Russia has entrenched itself in the area it wanted to take. The rest of your information is likewise a very simplistic way of looking at the problem, the NATO argument is bullshit, but so is the argument that Putin just wants more land, the land of Ukraine is relatively poor (productively economically speaking) if it weren’t for the West, as you correctly said, pouring in tons of resources. Now that Europe is effectively bankrupt, what will happen in say 5, 10 and 25 years? 2.5 years was just half the on-ramp to the last world wars, Germany stopped adhering to the Treaty of Versailles and the Dawes plan was the West showing weakness in 1926, by the early 1930s Germany started practically re-arming, it was nearly a decade before WW2 set in. There are a lot of parallels here, the West showing itself weak and letting tinpot dictators take over in Eastern Europe and Germany.

Riley

Russia is a country of 144 million but only have 8 million men from the ages of 20-30. The demographics of Russia is just terrible. One million have been killed or wounded. One million have fled the country. They have more deaths each year than live births.

The Russian army currently consists of fetal alcohol country bumpkins, immigrants, prisoners, homeless people, drug users , ethic minorities. Once the middle class blue eyed blond haired Slavs of Moscow and St. Peterburg are called up in mass, there will either be a regime change in Moscow or a negotiated settlement. The power base of Russian supports the war in theory but don’t want their children in die in. It is hardly the great patriotic war.

Most military analysts believe Russia is about three years away from this point. The course is making sure the Ukrainians defend static positions and have the bullets and shell to defend themselves. Let the Russians piss away a generation of young men till they are no longer a threat to the west or world.

The idea that Russian can out spend or resource the West is not going to happen.

Riley

My great parents came to Canada in the 1930’s from the Ukraine, escaping “ the Holodumor “ . Stalin and his man made famines. They moved out west during the Great Depression and were poor. Poorer than they were in the Soviet Union. When asked if he regretted moving to Canada and he also said not for a second. I can go to bed at night and not have to worry about a knock on my door from the secret police and to never be seen again.

I really wish people could fathom how stupid some of the comments there comments on this subject really are.

Anony Mous

1M Russians dead? According to the US government it is currently 120k and Putin claims that is a gross overestimation, Ukraine has about 70k soldiers dead. However Russia has 2M troops and 250k paramilitary, there is a sufficient pool, Ukraine had 250k active troops before the war started and 1M reservists, however 768k military aged males left the country since according to the EU…

And Russia is not alone here, the Chinese are currently supporting Russia which can muster well over 100M men if they need to and have a massive economy.

Again, stop thinking simplistic about this problem, you cannot have Ukraine fight their way back and re-occupy Crimea, that’s the reality on the ground, so you need to ask, what will it take to end the war. Putin will not hand back Crimea and Georgia and Transnistria and Donbas, they are all ethnically Russian now, partially because weak FDR policy (who was a communist and Nazi supporter), but also Carter, Obama and Biden policy. If you force Russia out, how, where are the Russians that have lived there for a century going to move? If you follow history of the area from Genghis Khan to Napoleon to Hitler, it will end up with scorched earth but this time with nukes?

no-zombie

I don't normally get involved in flame-wars, but if anyone can not see that the Dictator Putin and the FSB are the instigators and maintainers of the Ukrainian war, then such one know very little of how the USSR operated in the past like with in invasion of Czechoslovakia, how Russia operated in Chechnya and South Ossetia, nor do such ones see how Russia is operating in countries outside of Ukraine today.

Yes, I'm calling you out as dangerously ignorant.

Doubt what I'm saying talk to any Lithuanian, Estonian, Bulgarian or Fin on this topic for just a few minutes ... and they will set you straight.

slimboyfat

Has Russia treated Ukraine worse than the US has treated Haiti, or Iraq, for example? Or is it only other countries that should be held up to basic standards such as not invading other countries or interfering in their affairs? The hypocrisy is so blatant it takes a lifetime of indoctrination by western media not to see it, and even then the propaganda is beginning to fail.

For me a real wake up call was when the US blew up the Russian pipeline and all the western media colluded in pretending the Russians did it to themselves, a proposition so audacious in its propaganda that it was hard to believe anyone could say it with a straight face. Nobody outside of the western propaganda bubble believed it. I don’t know if it was Seymour Hersh or someone else who said that even a goat herder in Mongolia is aware who blew up the pipeline, but the average citizen in the west doesn’t know. That’s how powerful the propaganda is. You had to be a reader of the New York Times or a viewer of BBC to be convinced not to see reality. Never has Mark Twain’s comment be more true: if you don’t read the paper you are uninformed, and if you do read the paper you are misinformed.

I don’t think anyone would argue that Russia has treated Ukraine well, the point is that it didn’t need to come to this if the US wasn’t as hellbent on projecting its power across the planet.

BoogerMan

On the subject of the O.P. - Are governments (e.g. Ukraine) now insisting that to be a conscientious objector, you have to be a signed up member of a Christian denomination/sect?

Romans 8:38, 39 - "For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments (nor the WTBTS) nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Surely a faith is a faith - even for non-denominational Christians?

no-zombie

I'm sorry Slimboyfat, but do really believe what you've just wrote ? ....

"Has Russia treated Ukraine worse than the US has treated Haiti, or Iraq, for example?"

If you really do, then you slandering your own armed forces with indictable crimes against humanity. Because that is exactly what Russian forces and its command structure have been charged with by the ICC. Crimes like the uses of internationally banned chemical weapons, the forced deportation of children, the deliberate targeting of hospitals, schools and train stations ... and of course the mass (directly targeted ) slaughter of unarmed civilians in places like Bucha and Irpin.

At the moment, I am literally angry from reading your post.

Rivergang

The most important lesson which should have been learned from the Vietnam War is that wars are seldom won by military means alone. We should never ever underestimate the role that propaganda plays in securing a military victory.

Both Hitler and Stalin well understood this, and they each treated language as serving just one purpose and one purpose alone - that of being God's gift to liars.

For example, in the time of the Soviet Union, the KGB actually devoted 75% of its budget - not to espionage - but to propaganda and disinformation.

From the old USSR, the Russian Federation inherited a highly effective propaganda machine; against which the likes of the New York Times, BBC and similar aren't even in the hunt!

Stalin's successors (of whatever stripe) have continued to this day making full use of what is sometimes referred to as "Hybrid Warfare" - of which the targeted use of sometimes blatant propaganda is an essential part. (And no matter how outrageous the content of such propaganda may be, there are always sufficient people around who are foolish enough to believe it). In the doctrine of hybrid warfare, propaganda rates as simply another arm to be made use of, alongside tanks, artillery, foot soldiers and aircraft.

So copious and unrelenting has the Russian propaganda effort been (ever since the time of the Soviet Union) that one commentator has described it as being, to quote, "A firehose of falsehood". This is a battle which Vladimir Putin is so far winning hands-down!

Another lesson which should have been learned from the example of Vietnam is that there are two ways of winning a war. You can either destroy the enemy's means to fight (i.e. his forces), or you can destroy his will to fight. This is another battle in which Vladimir Putin is holding all the advantages.

NO SUPPORT FOR EXJWS DRAFTED IN UKRAINE

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