Morality Without Deity

by cofty 210 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Ruby456

  John-mann

  what I can add to this thread is that it isn't possible to entirely evacuate the self but what I would argue is that the solitary consciousness we call me is always under the spell of something else - something sensuous (I guess what you would call qualia John-mann). Our intellectual I is under the spell of reading (and this is the difference from oral societies) - this is a sensuous activity as we do become caught up in the world of reading though our senses - reading on the internet for example. we are not even solitary selves when we are reading books.

  so your argument that disbelief in god leads to an elimination of the self does not stand up
• 

  cofty

  For the sake of discussing the moral rather than practical issues let's look at the following scenario. If there are details that you doubt then treat it as a thought-experiment.

  Stem-cell research offers the way to cure a range of debilitating diseases. No other effective treatments are possible. Human stem-cells are harvested from the blastula and grown in culture to create many generations of new cells. The original cells can produce millions of undifferentiated stem-cells.

  From a secular perspective approving stem-cell research seems like a moral good. The original blastula are left over from fertilisation treatment. By harvesting the cells countless numbers of humans will receive treatment to cure or alleviate real suffering.

  From the perspective of "absolute morality" things look different. The blastula assumes all the rights and sacredness of an adult human and stem-cell research becomes a moral evil.

  The consequences of this debate are not hypothetical. How can you justify your position and show that it is more moral. In other words how is it more effective in promoting the well-being of conscious creatures?
• 

  John_Mann

  what I can add to this thread is that it isn't possible to entirely evacuate the self

  Yes. The Self is the main feature of the spiritual soul. The soul is always busy, it's not solitary in the sense it's insulated from everything. It's intellect and will are always busy. When I mentioned its solitude I was talking about its NATURE in relation to the physical world. Every soul is a direct creation of God.

  but what I would argue is that the solitary consciousness we call me is always under the spell of something else - something sensuous (I guess what you would call qualia John-mann).

  That's not qualia but I understand what you mean.

  Our intellectual I is under the spell of reading (and this is the difference from oral societies) - this is a sensuous activity as we do become caught up in the world of reading though our senses - reading on the internet for example. we are not even solitary selves when we are reading books.

  You're are describing what in Psychology is called "flow".

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
  

  so your argument that disbelief in god leads to an elimination of the self does not stand up

  Non sequitur.

  You only (correctly) mentioned the Self can't be insulated from the physical environment which gives non-stop work to the Self.

  My argument is the theistic view gives a metaphysical nature to the Self. This is easy to accept because the nature of Self is scientifically mysterious, science doesn't even have a definition of what is Self and/or consciousness.

  If science is totally in the dark about something and if you denies a metaphysical explanation it's logical to assume the Self is an illusion. Because this is the very method that is used to assume God is an illusion. That's exactly what is the eliminativist materialism.

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliminative_materialism
  
• 

  cofty

  Please remember the topic is Morality Without Deity.
• 

  John_Mann

  a fertilised egg might split days later and become two or more people. Where and when did the extra souls come from?

  God creates every soul from nothing (creatio ex nihilo). Being directly created by God the nature of the soul is perfect and cannot be undone that's why the soul is immortal.

  By revelation and respect for the unknown it's assumed this creation occurs at the moment of conception. If a fertilised egg splits we can assume the other soul is created at the moment of this division.

  Most zygotes fail before implantation - where did all those souls go and why?

  We don't know if it failed because God chose to not give it a soul. But if it was gifted with a soul, this soul goes to a Limbo. Because the final destiny of the soul is to be eternally united to a human body, but this destiny will be only fulfilled after the resurrection in the Last Judgment.

  Sometimes two fertilised eggs will fuse creating a chimera. The person will develop normally. How many souls do they have? etc etc etc.

  Every human have only one spiritual immortal soul.

  God is not limited by time. He knows in advance that the egg would fuse or split, etc.
• 

  cofty

  Evidence?
• 

  John_Mann

  How can you justify your position and show that it is more moral. In other words how is it more effective in promoting the well-being of conscious creatures?

  You never passed through the stage of being a fertilised egg, cofty? Did you came to existence squeaky clean in a beak of a stork?

  I was a fertilised egg and I'm very thankful to not being used as a scientific experiment.
  
  
• 

  John_Mann

  Scientific evidence?

  This is not science, cofty.
• 

  Ruby456

  cofty

  Please remember the topic is Morality Without Deity
  

  yes I understand cofty but you are also arguing for objective morality and this where you run into trouble because morality is always coloured by subjectivity and culture
• 

  Ruby456

  john mann - thought experiments can employ circular reasoning. but please spell out what you mean by qualia.