Morality Without Deity

by cofty 210 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty

    John. The challenge is how we maximise the well being of conscious creatures.

    Harvesting millions of stem cells from blastula offers the hope of curing terrible diseases. The rewards are incalculable.

    You want to prohibit that based on a whole series of assertions about souls, limbo, life after death etc.

    If we are to take your concerns into consideration when making this decision you need to offer objective evidence. Its a perfectly reasonable request.

    This is the perfect illustration of "absolute morality" based on dogma about a theoretical perfect deity versus secular morality based on objective facts.

    Ruby please let's stick to the topic. Morality without Deity.

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    cofty imo you are sliding into arguing for doing what is pragmatic rather than fleshing out a secular morality - wouldn't you agree that even a secular morality would say we shouldn't take another's life.

  • cofty
    cofty

    I can think of many situations where taking a life is a moral good. If a crowd of innocent people are being fired on by a terrorist it is heroic for a policeman to shoot him dead.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann

    While my premises cannot be scientifically verified my conclusion have an objective outcome of maximization of well being of humans.

    I don't know how someone can consider the quantity value of how many lives are saved. I have the morality that every human life is absolutely important.

    Anyway if your challenge consists in quantity what about if Alexander Fleming was destroyed when he was a fertilised egg?

    How do you know you are not killing the embryo who would cure cancer if it was give the chance to continue its natural development?

    We must respect the unknown. It's a moral and wise thing to do.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    I can think of many situations where taking a life is a moral good. If a crowd of innocent people are being fired on by a terrorist it is heroic for a policeman to shoot him dead.

    Sure.

    But this is not the same situation like the destruction of embryos, right?

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    At lunchtime I ate six boiled eggs, does that make me a sinner, immoral ?

    I know I am being silly with that, a chickens egg is not even an embryo I guess.

    But we do need to be sensible about this. As with all questions of Morality we have to balance doing the least harm whilst accomplishing the most good.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann

    In my view you can research non human embryos at your will.

    Just don't mess with human embryos.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Imagine we are taking part in a panel of experts advising the government on the ethics of stem-cell research.

    A succession of doctors explain the potential benefit in terms of lives saved and alleviation of suffering that cannot be achieved by any other means. An embryologist describes the blastula in detail, explaining how it is hollow ball of cells just a few days after conception. He tells how many of these are eventually discarded following fertility treatment and how millions of precious stem cells can be cultured from just one blastula.

    Fertility experts describe how a very high percentage of fertilised eggs at this stage of development fail to implant are spontaneously aborted without the mother even being aware. It is also explained how one of the primary functions of contraceptive pills taken by millions of women is to prevent the implantation of a fertilised ovum. All are satisfied that there is nothing resembling a nervous system or consciousness at this stage.

    All of these objective facts are presented along with mountains of laboratory results and images.

    It looks like the advice will be unanimous when a theologian asks to be heard. He tells us that at the very instant of conception something called a human soul is implanted in the zygote by an almighty god. For this reason stem-cell research should not be permitted.

    Reasonable requests for answers to questions about the nature of this thing called a soul are dismissed as a divine mystery. Objections regarding the soul/s of twins or chimera are similarly brushed aside with dogmatic statements about limbo and divine foreknowledge.

    The theologian insists that his objective is the same as the rest of the panel - to maximise the well being of CONSCIOUS creatures, but he is unwilling to join the dots and explain how refusing a cure to tens of thousands of suffering humans will achieve this goal.

    Why should the theologian's objections be given serious consideration in the panel's conclusions?

    This is just one example of many we could use to illustrate point. We could discuss a prohibition of contraception that has resulted in incalculable suffering and poverty. It has saddled parents with huge families they can ill-afford and condemned women to decades of child-bearing.

    We could discuss homosexuality and investigate whether religious objections amount to anything more objective than "god says..."

    There is no absolute standard of perfect morality. We work out ethics from the bottom-up and nobody should demand respect for dogmatic assertions that are unsupported with objective evidence.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann

    The Christian view on homosexuality is related to human conception. The conception and the moment of death are sacred in Christianity and are the bases to other doctrines.

    No matter how scientific you want to be cofty, you must understand this is not science but faith. Faith is not anti-science but at the same time can't be science because it copes with metaphysics while science not.

    Faith is a Divine gift and I don't know why some people does not have it.

  • cofty
    cofty
    No matter how scientific you want to be cofty, you must understand this is not science but faith.

    To call something "faith" is to say absolutely nothing useful about it. It is an attempt to avoid the reasonable burden of giving evidence to support your assertions.

    Faith is absolutely anti-scientific. My previous post explains why this is so in detail. Your faith-based position does the exact opposite of promoting the well-being of conscious creatures.

    Faith is a Divine gift and I don't know why some people does not have it.

    I spent most of my life basing my beliefs on faith. Eventually I realised that faith is not a proper basis for knowledge. It is something people resort to when they lack evidence. Faith is a hindrance to morality. Faith is not a Virtue...


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