Morality Without Deity

by cofty 210 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • UrbanII
    UrbanII
    It is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

    As far as I could tell, you only defined objective morality. You said later,

    There are moral facts about the world. There are right ways and wrong ways to behave if our concern is to maximise well-being. This is "objective morality".

    That definition is a bit ambiguous. Is the definition just the first sentence? Only the second? Both? The second has two propositions, so is it the conjunction of the two? Could you please clarify this and clearly define the other two terms, absolute and subjective morality? Just for clarity sake, so no one is accused of straw-manning.

    when we try to apply that bald assertion in the real world it is found to be useless at best.

    Do you think that there is a difference between meta-ethics and applied ethics? If not, why not? If so, then why conflate the two? Meta-ethics seems to be the apologists goal here, and so should be of no surprise when it doesn't provide practical content. Further, even if it were useless, would it follow that it is therefore false? Does a propositions impracticality entail it's falsehood?

    If the created world is assumed to be a reflection of the goodness of god then we are forced to face up to the carnage

    And do you think that in the theist worldview, God's creation reflects that goodness perfectly, or do you think that evil has infested the world accounts for at least some of that carnage? If so, then there may not be any inconsistency.

    mass extinctions have violently wiped out more than 90% of living things - difficult to reconcile with Jesus' promise that god cares for every sparrow.
    First, there seems to be a conflation on whom you are addressing. At the beginning of the OP you say,
    One of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.

    But surely you can believe in God without being a Christian, correct? So, to properly focus on the audience and whom you are addressing, I would like to know, are you talking to theists in general or Christians in particular? This may affect some of my future comments.

    Second, why think that in a Christian world view, God taking life that he created is the same as not caring for that life?

    If the conscience is a result of god's nature in humans

    To be sure that you yourself are not strawmanning this, can you cite a theist ethicist who makes the claim that conscience is a result of God's nature in humans? I find this suspect, especially considering the many theists I personally know would vigorously deny this.

    then it is a very blunt tool.
    And? Does that make it false? Nor does it warrant skepticism. Approximation within other sciences, like history, psychology, or even physics, doesn't warrant skepticism, so why here? It's okay to deal in inexactitudes, so long as we work, or philosophize, to minimize them.
    The reality is that theists cherry-pick ethical statements from the bible and use then to justify their moral positions post hoc.

    Even if true, this just seems to be ad hom, as your thesis is,

    show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.

    I dunno man, how badly do you want to discuss these propositions if you have these attacks on people? Kinda makes one unenthusiastic about entering a conversation. Just saying.

    We could safely dispose of the words ethics and morality in these sort of conversations without losing anything useful.

    Can we hold you to that? Can you, from here on out, delete those words from your vocabulary? If not, I suggest you retract the statement.

    It all amounts to nothing more than the what we call our concerns about the way our actions affect the well-being of conscious creatures.

    I'd say that's a necessary, but not alone sufficient condition.

    challenge for theists is to name an example that does not fit that description

    Here you go. Animals have consciousness, but have no moral status.

    http://www.academia.edu/6986943/In_Defense_of_Eating_Meat

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    cofty

    I can think of many situations where taking a life is a moral good. If a crowd of innocent people are being fired on by a terrorist it is heroic for a policeman to shoot him dead.

    okay and I agree to an extent. but then why does the policeman then have to hand in his weapon until it is established that he did have reason to shoot and kill the terrorist? and why in general is there so much debate regarding people being shot by policemen?

    the best thing about morality without deity is that such morality is subject to debate and controversy whereas morality with deity in theology tends to be taken as absolute. But even here there can be debate and discussion it is just that it happens infrequently and when it does it is behind closed doors.

    Sam Harris paints a very polarised us against them picture. the reality is that even in secular morality stem cell research using human embryos is a grey much debated area.

    also consider this

    wiki

    China has one of the most permissive human embryonic stem cell policies in the world. In the absence of a public controversy, human embryo stem cell research is supported by policies that allow the use of human embryos and therapeutic cloning.[59]
  • cofty
    cofty

    Hello UrbanII welcome to the forum. It's very unusual to dive straight into a point-by-point criticism of a thread without at least introducing yourself.

    Let's get acquainted and then you can tell me which of those many objections you would actually like to discuss.

    The only one I want to counter in advance is your false accusation of ad hominem. I never do that. I don't need to as I have all the evidence on my side. Saying that "theists cherry-pick ethical statements from the bible and use them to justify their moral positions post hoc" is not ad hominem it is a simple statement of fact.

    I think your basic mistake is to treat my OP as a formal argument. It is not. It is a conversational style observation. But you knew that already and you obviously want to impress with your first post. If you want a conversation then tell me where you want to begin. There are so many errors in your post I am not going to invest the time correcting them all.


  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    I spent most of my life basing my beliefs on faith. Eventually I realised that faith is not a proper basis for knowledge. It is something people resort to when they lack evidence. Faith is a hindrance to morality. Faith is not a Virtue...

    As I said before this is the very reason of your clear feeling of revolt.

    Your previous faith truly made you accept anti-science doctrines like creationism.

    Creationism is a lie. For some reason you extrapolate your experience with faith to every other faith.

    Catholic faith (or Judaism and Buddhism AFAIK) for instance is not anti-science. Truly it can limit science in some very narrow aspects (human embryos), but this is not a total opposition to science. Establishing ethical limits to science is not the same as anti-science. BTW do you have more examples of "anti-science" in Catholicism?

    You are so blindly attacking faith itself that you are making gross logical contradictions in your position. And so far you seems not bother to see theses errors.

    Ironically now you embrace the faith that science must be the universal method to things not reached by science. Now you embrace the faith in scientism, and it's plain wrong just like your JW and Pentecostal faith.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

  • cofty
    cofty
    but then why does the policeman then have to hand in his weapon until it is established that he did have reason to shoot and kill the terrorist? - Ruby

    Because shooting somebody without cause is bad.

    the best thing about morality without deity is that such morality is subject to debate and controversy whereas morality with deity in theology tends to be taken as absolute.

    Yes indeed.

    Much of the time the moral decrees of theists coincide with those you would reach by objective routes. That's what I mean when I said that "theists cherry-pick ethical statements from the bible and use them to justify their moral positions post hoc".

    Thesits judge murder to be wrong for the same reasons as the rest of us. They pretend their reasons have more significance by inventing a supernatural life-giver. Of course they then have to cherry-pick and ignore the moral atrocities committed by this perfect source of goodness.

  • cofty
    cofty

    John - I am happy to discuss the issues with you but I don't appreciate your efforts to psychoanalyse my feelings and motivations.

    You are so blindly attacking faith itself that you are making gross logical contradictions in your position.

    My criticism of faith is not blind. It is based on a lot of experience. If I am making "gross logical contradictions" they should be very easy to point out. I am aware of no contradictions in my position but I am listening.

    Let's stick to the topic of Morality without Deity.

    We agreed that when we talk about morality we are concerned about maximising the well being of CONSCIOUS creatures. How is achieved by prohibiting stem-cell research?

    On the one side we have thousands of people suffering from debilitating, painful and often fatal diseases. On the other side we have a little ball of cells already frozen and awaiting disposal following a round of fertility treatment.

    What are we missing here?

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    John - I am happy to discuss the issues with you but I don't appreciate your efforts to psychoanalyse my feelings and motivations.

    Sorry I'm not comfortable in analyzing your feelings too but I think is necessary because I perceive a very emotional approach from you. I said that as a constructive criticism.

    My criticism of faith is not blind. It is based on a lot of experience. If I am making "gross logical contradictions" they should be very easy to point out. I am aware of no contradictions in my position but I am listening.

    You are making a philosophical attempt to differentiate objectiveness and absoluteness. But you're failing to do that.

    We agreed that when we talk about morality we are concerned about maximising the well being of CONSCIOUS creatures. How is achieved by prohibiting stem-cell research?

    Because I believe consciousness is produced by a soul and I believe the soul is created at the moment of conception. I'm not saying a fertilised egg is conscious but it have a conscious soul attached to it even though in a temporary dormant state (limbo).

  • cofty
    cofty
    You are making a philosophical attempt to differentiate objectiveness and absoluteness. But you're failing to do that.
    I have explained the difference very clearly multiple times in this thread. One is top-down rooted in the character of an absolute source of perfect morality. The other is worked out from the bottom-up by reasoning on the effects of our actions on the well being of conscious creatures.
    Your claims about stem-cell research being unethical is based on an appeal to absolute standards handed down to us with no thought to the objective facts.
    I believe consciousness is produced by a soul and I believe the soul is created at the moment of conception.
    Why should those suffering painful diseases care what you believe?

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    Why should those suffering painful diseases care what you believe?

    Your position is stem-cell research specifically using human embryos is a miraculous panacea.

    You know this is not true.

    Can you please provide me other example of "anti-science" from my religious position?

  • cofty
    cofty

    The topic is Morality not Catholics v science.

    You still avoiding all the questions. Why should your evidence-free dogma trump the opportunity to alleviate suffering?

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