IS JESUS A CREATED BEING? DEBATE WITH PASTOR

by raymond frantz 21 Replies latest jw experiences

  • jhine
    jhine

    John seems in no doubt about Jesus .

    Verses 1- 5

    " In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God and the Word was God . He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made ; without him nothing was made that has been made . In him was life , and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it "

    Verse 14

    " The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us . We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son , who came from the Father , full of grace and truth . "

    I understand that the WT inserts the Word ' other ' into the first part in order to change the meaning .

    Jan from Tam

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    Theres something about 'walk-up' confrontations to JW's that irritate me.

    Its not that I feel sorry for the JW's but almost always its the same conclusion. The JW tunes out, their brain becomes zombified and the complete lack of interest they have in debating is obvious.

    There is something really un-satisfying watching them feebly defend their views. Its almost like they know they are beaten before they even start. For the sheer amount of propaganda they swallow, you would think they would put up more of a fight.

  • Journeyman
    Journeyman
    The JW tunes out, their brain becomes zombified and the complete lack of interest they have in debating is obvious.
    There is something really un-satisfying watching them feebly defend their views.

    To be fair, that never used to be the way with most JWs, as many on here can attest. The average JW used to be trained and encouraged to really defend their beliefs. Of course many used to do it in strange ways, but at least they would attempt it, not just fold up and run away or say something like "just look on our website"!

    On the other hand, I'm not a fan of the opposite either - the kind of aggressive "street preaching" type of characters who get in your face with their beliefs. There rarely feels like anything Christian about them, they often just seem out to win arguments and score points, especially ones with a Trinitarian background.

    JWs are supposed to be "ready to make a defence", not go on the attack. However, it's hard to defend if you've not been properly trained and practicing in the first place, as is often the case with JWs today.

    It's rather like the concept of martial arts: on the one hand, real martial artists say you should only use the power for defensive means, not aggression, but of course some do use it that way. But in order to be ready to defend yourself, you still need to train and practice regularly.

    Most of today's crop of JWs have little "training" and certainly do not really practice defending their beliefs (although to be fair, they are encouraged to do so in the meetings), so it's no surprise they are ill-prepared for many "preachers" that might approach them (whether street pastors, born agains and Seventh Day Adventists, or even other faiths like Muslims)

    The pastor’s got charisma, but his argument’s a house of cards.

    In this video, although he isn't aggressive in his approach, the "pastor" doesn't bring anything new. Those of us who were JWs "trained" years ago have heard all the standard trinitarian texts and concepts he claims here, and as stated by raymond frantz, it's not correct or persuasive at all to anyone who really knows their stuff.

    And as ever, one has to ask: What is actually his motive for approaching these JWs, and how should they respond in the light of that? If his motive is one of questioning because he wants to know an answer (either for himself, or just because he's curious what JWs believe), then fine - a discussion can proceed. But if he is convinced of what he already believes and is simply trying to change the mind of the Witnesses, what's the point? Jesus did not continue trying to change or persuade the minds of those who were firmly decided in what they believed - whether the Pharisees, Sadducees, and so on, or even those in the crowds who did not really want to follow him. So from either perspective (his or the JWs) once it's clear the other "side" is firmly decided in their viewpoint, there is no reason to carry on.

    I've terminated many such conversations after a few minutes and exchanges of Bible verses, when it becomes clear that is why the person is there - usually they will also admit they are a priest/pastor, they are trying to "save" me, or whatever. They often also start increasing the tension, such as was highlighted here by talking about "heresy" or they may begin to use name-calling or insults. Again, those are further signals that the person does not intend to be reasonable.

    If neither side is going to change, then there is no point continuing. It's also why I largely avoid the interminable debates over the trinity on these pages too.

    Just as any person approached by a JW has a right to say "no thank you" if they are convinced that Witnesses are wrong, so too a JW can refuse to continue a conversation if a person who has approached them is just there to argue.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Seabreeze I believe you are well intentioned. However, there's nothing in the scriptures that

    state that if we reject the tripartite nature of man it means we lose salvation.

    @Halcon

    Your statement assumes that a person already has salvation, and might lose it. Aside from children who are unable to comprehend the word of God, no one starts out saved.

    Since we are saved by grace through faith, shouldn't we be sure we have faith in the right Jesus to forgive sins? What if a person has faith in the wrong Jesus? Like a Jesus the Mormons invented? Or, the angelic Jesus Russell invented? Or, maybe a person has faith in a church or their good works. Will that save a person? At what point does "faith" deviate far enough from the biblical Jesus that he states on Judgment Day, " I never knew you"?

    The scriptural description of man having three parts, each with personhood (soul, body & spirit) allows a framework for Jesus to be who he claimed to be : fully man & fully God.... both created and uncreated.


    JW's would never think of bowing down to Jesus and asking him to save them. For them, that would be creature worship because they think he is an angel. They also conviently believe that there is not any kind of personhood assigned to our souls or spirits. They believe that when they die, they atone for their own sins and if they get it wrong and are not resurrected, no big deal. This is I suspect the real object of faith for many.

    The bible consistently uses pronouns and attributes personhood to the spirit, body and soul of a man. If we choose not to believe God, on this issue, what else will we not believe God about? Do we just forget about how Jesus told Nicodemas three times that a person must be born again? Do we just brush off the offer for forgiveness of sins in the new covenant in Mt. 16; 27-28 BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD US it isn't meant for you?

    In other words, can a person be saved by a faith that listens to another voice other than God, with an object of faith other than who Jesus claimed to be? So, it is all related.

  • jhine
    jhine

    Journeyman you make some good points . Yes many Christians do try to score points and win arguments. I probably did when l was younger, especially when talking to JWs . Usually if they came to my door to convert me , so to some extent they did invite debate. However just trading points is unproductive.

    I have often wondered if it's fair to try and talk JWs out of the Truth as it often means losing family and friends and if they are older having their whole life's foundation shattered .

    Then you read on here if how unhappy many are , how alcohol and antidepressants are common props and suicide is not uncommon .

    To be honest I came on here to learn more about WT teaching and how to engage with Witnesses. However what l have learnt about people in general is that they have to want to listen and be receptive to new ways of thinking .

    So Raymond Franz is not a Trinitarian? For some reason l just assumed that he is 🤷‍♀️.

    I am reading a book about Christian Apologetics by Alister McGrath ( not a page turner l must admit ) . In it he states that the art of Apologetics is NOT about winning arguments.

    Jan from Tam

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    JWs used to (still do??) get a basic list of talking points for overcoming objections or answering simple questions about the Bible. The Reasoning book compiled these by subject, giving the rank-and-file a way to respond to many different questions or objections, which gives them the confidence to 'defend' what they believe. They are also taught not to engage if the discussion becomes contentious or if they perceive that they are being preached to (ironic as that may sound).

    Keep in mind that most people know about as much about their religion and texts as the average JW. I found most Christians that I encountered knew surprisingly little, so that even the surface-level preparation that I'd gotten from the WTS made me feel as if I had a wealth of knowledge compared to them. Many people are content to serve and worship without getting a more in-depth understanding of their religion. By that standard, many JWs are quite well prepared to have a short debate on almost any Bible subject.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Seabreeze-we are saved by grace through faith, shouldn't we be sure we have faith in the right Jesus to forgive sins? What if a person has faith in the wrong Jesus? Like a Jesus the Mormons invented? Or, the angelic Jesus Russell invented? Or, maybe a person has faith in a church or their good works. Will that save a person?

    What if a person reads this and walks away agreeing with Peter?

    15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

    16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

    17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

    God would condemn this person but save Peter?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @Halcon -

    If his heart is right, no. The evidence of that is if that person continues to grow by the leadings of the Holy Spirit. But can a person believe Jesus is the Son of God and still have a heart "not right before God"? That's the question here.That would be a tragedy I'm sure you would agree.


    Acts 8

    13 Simon [Magnus] himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw....

    18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

    20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.

    Some people come to Jesus with weird motives; motives that are something other than complete surrender to Jesus as the highest authority, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. If they belong to Christ, the Holy Spirit will get them on track in due time. If not, they will continue to embrace heresies, looking for loopholes, escape clauses, and pursuing personal recognition of one sort or another.

    Some very early church fathers stated that Simon Magnus went on to found Gnosticism, a system of heretical, anti-christian thought that continues to this day.

    But hey, he believed Jesus was the Son of God.

  • Raimundo
    Raimundo

    John 1:14 is clear, Jesus is μονογενής or translated "only begotten" there it says that he was begotten while God has always existed and of course is not begotten. That is the reason why he is called father and Jesus is called son.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Not sure of your point Raimundo.

    But, Jesus was not begotten in eternity past as a creation called The Son. He was begotten when he was made flesh:

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. - John 1

    So what does begotten (monogenes) mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship."

    Jesus is unique, one of a kind; being both fully man and begotten by God sharing his essence - thus fully God.


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