Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry 160 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Anders Andersen
    Anders Andersen

    Perry: "We can see the forest is on fire. Every forest fire has an Ignitor. What is the Ignitor for this forest fire?"

    Most sensible people: "We don't know yet, but there are several things we can think of: lightning, a camp fire, sun rays through a looking glass, a hot car exhaust, heat-producing bacteria...and probably processes we dont even know about now. Let's try and find out."

    Perry: "It must be Prometheus because it says so in this cool ancient story I like!"

    Some people need zero evidence to jump from a question to a very specific answer. Even when their answer isn't very logical at all. Or when all possible answers are far beyond our realm and current comprehension.

    There is no arguing with (or against) that.

  • prologos
    prologos

    P: "--What Caused the Universe to exist?

    GrrT "--Indeed, and what caused th Causer to exist?

    M:  "Not sure how that helps with Perry's problem here?

    Mephis, --You introduced the very interesting term "linear time" not much different from  one dimensional time, or the "arrow of time". What I like Perry to consider is that time is more pervasive than that, Any entity in stationary time would not be subject to the law of cause and effect, that our movement through time subjects us to.  Time not as a flowing river, but an endless ocean, through which we move, surf (life riding a wave of energy),  To quote he discredited bible," --Hovered over the [endless] water--" 

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    Prologos. Logically, something had to always exist. Either that something is God or something else.
  • Xanthippe
    Xanthippe
    Why should the cause of the universe be something big, intelligent and caring? Do planets and galaxies crashing into one another and suns going supernova, scorching planets and any life on them, suggest something big, intelligent and caring? Who knows how many stars have already gone supernova and killed intelligent life like us? Random events can be causes too.
  • prologos
    prologos

    F: "--always--" the moment you think that, say that you accept , that time always existed. But time is not god, or love or light, as the bible says, but certainly a supposed creator would have all the time in and outside the world.

    X: "--crashing --suns going supernova, --" The events you described are the best things that ever happened for us. It had to be big, it is not called the big bang for nothing. caring? well it is here because the first cause might not have to be caused .

  • Mephis
    Mephis
    Mephis, --You introduced the very interesting term "linear time" not much different from one dimensional time, or the "arrow of time". What I like Perry to consider is that time is more pervasive than that, Any entity in stationary time would not be subject to the law of cause and effect, that our movement through time subjects us to. Time not as a flowing river, but an endless ocean, through which we move, surf, To quote he discredited bible," --Hovered over the [endless]water--"

    Well, yes, I used a term to describe the causal nature of our universe. If you wish to place God outside of that, fine, but no amount of wet metaphors are going to handwave away the consequences which follow from that. Nor conflate the idea with static time.

  • cofty
    cofty

    First christians failed to explain why the bible is full of flaws, contradictions and deplorable ethics.

    Then they lost the argument about evolution.

    Now they retreat into cosmic origins and deism.

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    Perry:- O.P " Belives about what caused the universe"

    The Rebel (A) I think for many the answer is discovered by taking a lonely walk, or sat quietly in a room for an hour. Some I believe  also find the answer in prayer, " I want to feel you God". For others they look for scientific proof. What one calls fantasy you correctly say is what another chooses to " believe".

    So do I ridicule what you believe? Well I have enterd the debate, I have read your discussion, and I feel I have no questions to offer. It's all questions for atheists and questions for believers, however I am an athiest. What I will say is I do admire your courage to present what I see as pure fantasy, and yet you have the conviction to ignor the scientific facts, either that are you are a delusional mad man, which I know nothing could be further from the truth. Actually you may have to live the life of Job to change your mindset. I say that because when a person trusts in what they feel, and not what they should want to know life can be beautiful. You have a lovely family Perry I wish I could say with conviction " God bless you" but I can say with conviction your a lucky man.

    The Rebel.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Rebel, funny thing I've learned about "luck" over the years.... the more I believe God, the "luckier" I get.

    Point well taken and thank you.  

    So, if the mathematics (not to mention logic) shows our universe had a beginning, then someone or some thing, from the static state of timelessness had to have acted upon our space time universe in order for it to exist.

    This person or thing could rightly bear the label of a First Cause from our perspective, even as from its own perspective there is no such thing as before and after, just the eternal now.

    Materialism puts people in a box and prohibits people from accepting the necessity of a state of timelessness. They don't like it .... because it is outside of their personal reality. Consider this from Discover Magazine:

    The trouble with time started a century ago, when Einstein’s special and general theories of relativity demolished the idea of time as a universal constant. One consequence is that the past, present, and future are not absolutes. Einstein’s theories also opened a rift in physics because the rules of general relativity (which describe gravity and the large-scale structure of the cosmos) seem incompatible with those of quantum physics (which govern the realm of the tiny). Some four decades ago, the renowned physicist John Wheeler, then at Princeton, and the late Bryce DeWitt, then at the University of North Carolina, developed an extraordinary equation that provides a possible framework for unifying relativity and quantum mechanics. But the Wheeler-­DeWitt equation has always been controversial, in part because it adds yet another, even more baffling twist to our understanding of time. 


    “One finds that time just disappears from the Wheeler-DeWitt equation,” says Carlo Rovelli, a physicist at the University of the Mediterranean in Marseille, France. “It is an issue that many theorists have puzzled about. It may be that the best way to think about quantum reality is to give up the notion of time—that the fundamental description of the universe must be timeless.” 


    No one has yet succeeded in using the Wheeler-DeWitt equation to integrate quantum theory with general relativity. Nevertheless, a sizable minority of physicists, Rovelli included, believe that any successful merger of the two great masterpieces of 20th-century physics will inevitably describe a universe in which, ultimately, there is no time. 

    I believe that God conveyed this simple (and necessary) reality to Moses when he said:

    "I AM THAT I AM"

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    Perry ( Q) " Anybody see another alternative?"

    The Rebel ( A) YES, close the thread, it's a waste of time unless anyone can define the place of Molecular Biology in a clone community, how can we answer " time had to have acted upon our time space universe to exist" Perry clever questions don't make us the lucky winner of eternal life, otherwise the majority of Christians would be floating on clouds, and on earth the numbers would be escalating not declining.

    Here is a more relevant question for a Christian, Why does God allow suffering, heartache and genocide?

    The Rebel.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit