Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou 168 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    Even if I was loyal and obedient and dedicated to god and his will, I am still in this position.

    @ Tonus - I question your assumption here. Can you be always be loyal? Can you always be obedient? No, you can't. That is why God declares at the very beginning of the "age of grace" that "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified". How many sins did Jesus die for? Answwer: All of them - past, present, and future.


    The Christian life isn't about doing more. Quite the contrary; it is about abandoning the "will worship" behind your previous works and allowing your new spirit that you got at Salvation (at the emptying) to take over. It feels a little wobbly at first, but it is really you who is doing it. The new spirit is your down-payment on the full inheritance to come when your soul (mind) and body are glorified in perfection. In other words, It is "you", but you know that it is not from "you.

    Since Calvary, humans have had a very dramatic display in how to permanently relate to God - "in spirit and in truth". No more obsessing over wondering if you did some law or religious requirement just right, or right enough.

    When a person abandons the rights to himself and 'dies" to himself for Christ, he immediaetly becomes an adopted member of God's family, a legal heir to everything that God owns. It is a completely different way of relating to God.... a relation as with a family member, a kinsman redeemer, a father or a mother.

    Ever see the instict of a mother kick in when protecting their young? It is something to behold, a force of nature way bigger than most of the indifference we experience in life. Yet, this is a miniscule picture of the loyalty that God has for his own:

    "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee"

    The safest place in the universe is as a child of god, a member of his family.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    Morality is a product of evolution just like everything else. In parts it's messy, fluid and open to debate but at the core is something that all primates have learned over millions of years.

    @ Nicholau,

    First of all there is no proof of evolution whatsoever. There are lots of made up "just so stories" that try to prop it up, but it is positioned on just sand that won't support it's claims. Using very liberal parameters, world renowwed geneticists proclaim that it would take far longer that the supposed age of the universe to get only one 8 letter genetic word into a population of say 10,000 members of that species from DNA copying mistakes. This is the real science atheists suppress.

    It you are just a chemical accident and a DNA copying mistake (nevermind where this multi-language and multi-coded alphabet comes from) why on earth would anyone (including yourself) trust anything that you say?

    The atheist view doesn't make sense: Why would there be a standard of reasoning in a chance universe? Why would we all have the same basic morals all over the globe if we all evolved differently and separately?

    This makes sense from a Christian worldview because our shared standards of logic, reasoning, and morality are reflections of God himself, since we are made in his image. It is consistent.

    It is inconsistent to assume that after millions of years of unguided "might makes right" survival of the fittist, that everything suddenly changed. Aren't we supposed to be just animals. Animals don't care about what happens to other animals.

    Why don't we put monkeys on trial for killing their own and sometimes eating them? Animals do what animals do. Morality, justice, grace, substitutionary atonement make no sense in an atheist worldview. Your world view blows itself up on its own claims. No bible needed here.

    Nicholau, This is a simple but honest question that I would like to hear your response to:

    How do you determine right from wrong?

  • cofty
    cofty
    How do you determine right from wrong

    Christians pretend to determine it by reference to god's words and actions. This leaves them having to approve of slavery, kidnap, rape and infanticide.

    Morality by divine fiat is no morality at all.

    In reality they mostly get their morals in the same way as unbelievers. From approving those things that promote the well being of conscious creatures. Then they superimpose god-talk over the top of that which leads to impossible contradictions. Socrates saw the dilemma when he posed is famous dilemma to Euthyphro.

  • cofty
    cofty

    I'm going to ignore your ignorant drivel about evolution. READ A BOOK FFS!

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    If we can reason out why actions are moral or immoral, no god is necessary.

    @Tonus - You are borrowing from the Christian worldview here to be able to attack it. You are pre-supposing that you know what correct reasoning is. How do you arrive at universal correct reasoning in a chance universe? What makes your reasoning "right" and others "wrong".

    Why would animals want to reason anyway? Why wouldn't laws or reasoning be different in different places. It's all blind chance, chemical reactions and copying mistakes, right?

    You are standing on Christian ground when you appeal to reason. "God cannot deny himself". You should either get saved or go get your own reason. Stop trespassing.


  • cofty
    cofty

    It's not worth trying to converse with pre-suppositionalists. They will literally gaslight you and expect you take their ravings seriously while refusing to engage with any evidence of any sort.

    Their ignorance (of which they are frequently proud) is exceeded only by their arrogance.

  • lriddle80
    lriddle80

    I don't approve of slavery, kidnapping, rape or infanticide.

    Can God use something that we call bad to accomplish his purposes? He used the assyrians to punish Israel and then he punished the assyrians.

    Do atheists have morals? Of course! Even though they don't believe in God they can still do good.

    These things feel similar. A good God can use evil; a person who doesn't believe can do good.

    But how do I live my life knowing this? Even though I don't fully understand God's ways or the atheists unbelief, I will love both and use my life to serve others and have interesting conversations. But the change and growth comes from God so I try not to be attached to the results, as hard as that is!

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    Nicholau, This is a simple but honest question that I would like to hear your response to:

    How do you determine right from wrong?

    If my actions cause harm to other people, creatures or the planet they are 'wrong'. If they benefit others they are 'good'.

    See how easy that is?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Christianity is widely credited with making infanticide taboo because of its teaching about inherent human dignity. The world was a much more unpleasant place before Christian ethics replaced a classical outlook.

    It’s worth checking out the book Dominion by Tom Holland, or his many interviews online on the impact Christianity. He’s a non believer himself who was surprised by his historical research into the impact of Christianity.

    https://youtu.be/cDa4vpkNKeQ

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Fisherman,

    I’ll have what you’re smoking.

    DD

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