Moral responsibility. (page 11)

Sea Breeze

@Cofty on where he gets his morality:

From approving those things that promote the well being of conscious creatures.

@ Nicholau :

If my actions cause harm to other people, creatures or the planet they are 'wrong'. If they benefit others they are 'good'.

Nicholau, how do you determine "good" in a chance universe? Totally abritrary standard.

Cofty: How do you know what brings happiness to other creatures? Isn't happiness just a chemical reaction in the brain? Since my chemical reactions are different than your chemical reactions, what gives you the right to impose your chemical reactions over my chemical reactions?

Furthermore, why should I pursue one chemical reaction over another .... like pain for example? The marquis de sade enjoyed toturing women. What if the pleasure he derived was greater than the pain he caused? Wouldn't the "good" outweigh the bad?

The atheist worldview is totally arbitrary and inconsistent in every possible way, it doesn't work even a little bit. It is the most inconsistent of worldviews.

But, Cofty; more to your point - In your worldview, why should I be concerned with the well-being of humans in Austrailia? If they are just rearranged pond-scum, why should I be concerned about their happiness?

This makes sense in a Christian worldview where God says to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. But, this is the polar opposite of the "tooth and claw" model that atheists claim was the mechanism that produced us. Again, this is irational, inconsistent and a "just so story" designed to try and conceal the presuppositional theft (do unto others) from the Christian worldview needed in order to attack it.

I don't think that either of you have really thought out your atheism before jumping it to it.

People who joined the WT, proceeded with the same recklessness.

Any other ideas on where atheists get their morality?

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: When a person abandons the rights to himself and 'dies" to himself for Christ, he immediaetly becomes an adopted member of God's family

This doesn't change the dynamic. As you note, we break god's rules all the time, and we have absolutely no way to recover from this on our own merits. Even those who want nothing more than to serve god as perfectly and purely as they can, fail constantly. Humanity is inherently incapable of following god's rules and commands.

The only way to avoid this would be to have our free will stripped away, to become someone -or something- that we are not. So, I will either spend eternity incapable of independent thought/action, or I will spend eternity suffering because I invariably broke a rule or crossed a line. The belief appears to be that god won't act this way, but that approach isn't logical. That's not who god is.

Sea Breeze: How do you arrive at universal correct reasoning in a chance universe?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "universal correct reasoning." You mean a moral code that everyone, everywhere, will agree with? Assuming such a thing is possible, you get there by trial and error. You experience things, you learn, you adjust. Over and over and over.

This is why so many old religious texts seem out of touch with modern times. They reflect the state of human moral reasoning of their time. Time goes on, we gain more experience and learn more, we update our moral guidelines, and the cycle continues.

Sea Breeze: You are standing on Christian ground when you appeal to reason.

This was the problem I ran into, when I was trying to make a case for god. Once I stopped relying on presuppositions, I had no basis for anything I believed. Stating that god is real, or that reason is impossible without god, allowed me to skip past the difficult parts and demand that others disprove or account for something that I did not prove or demonstrate in the first place.

The thing is, even if we grant the presupposition, we now have the ability to reason. And that means we can make determinations about moral behavior without having those rules imposed on us without explanation. I don't have to 'get my own reason.' Using the god-given ability to reason allows me to remove god from the moral equation. If god's own gift allows me to set him aside, then perhaps that is what god wanted all along?

cofty

SB - I would welcome an honest discussion of morality but if you are going to evade challenges by taking refuge in presuppositionalism I won't waste my time. It is deeply dishonest and intellectual cowardice.

cofty

I don't approve of slavery, kidnapping, rape or infanticide - Iriddle

God and Jesus do.

cofty

It's such a relief as a former theist to no longer have to defend the indefensible

DATA-DOG

Too bad we all didn’t spend the weekend at the “Exercise Patience” 2023 Convention.. Then we would be authorities on “God.”

DD 😂

cofty

Cofty: How do you know what brings happiness to other creatures?

Where did I mention happiness? Don't strawman me or we are finished.

Making somebody a slave doesn't promote their well being. Kidnapping them and raping them doesn't either.

Murdering babies en masse definitely doesn't promote anybodies well being.

How come we all know this but fundi xtians don't?

slimboyfat

It's such a relief as a former theist to no longer have to defend the indefensible

Were you defending slavery when you were a Christian? I can see that would be psychologically taxing.

Where did I mention happiness? Don't strawman me or we are finished.

You’re like a constant storm in your own personal teacup 😂

cofty

Were you defending slavery when you were a Christian?

No I was telling lies about the fact that god prescribes slavery by obfuscating about indentured servitude.

Slavery has been defended on this forum by xtians many times. So has infanticide. Theism turns some people into moral retards.

lriddle80

The bystander saves the boy from the platform. The boy grows up and realizes the person who saved him made choices that he wouldn't have made and he spends his life bad mouthing the person who saved him.

Moral responsibility.

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