JW prophets or not!!

by Zep 52 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Friend

  waiting

  Please do not mistake this as rudeness, but I have yet to understand the predilection toward offense on this forum. How can anyone here possibly take umbrage at words written without prior and real knowledge of the individual’s character and motives? I just cannot see it.

  If persons find what I say offensive then, please, explain what is wrong with what I say. Just saying it is offensive without explaining where I am wrong makes no sense to me. If I say, "So-and-so is missing the point" can that possibly be my offense if it is true? If it is true and So-and-so is offended, is that my fault? If participants abhor candid dialogue then I have no problem with that. None of us must communicate. We do it only if we wish it.

  I cannot see any significant difference either.

  I have offered a distinction between 1) a prophet that tells what they believe the will of God is and 2) a prophet claiming divine inspiration of prediction. The former (1) prophesies in the manner of interpreting God’s already expressed will. The latter (2) prophesies in the manner of having (or claiming to have) divine power to predict the future with absolute certainty.

  For a fact most sayings of prophets in the Bible were repeating something God had already said; they were applying those words to a current situation. That is one manner of prophesying, that is, telling God’s already expressed will—at least what you believe that to be. I believe that that is the manner of prophesying claimed by the WTS for Jehovah’s Witnesses.

  As for Rev 2:18-29, that text indicates Jesus’ awareness of and forbearance regarding a false prophet in the midst of one if his congregations. Also the text indicates that that congregation had at least provided tacit support for that false prophet by harboring them. Jesus’ words in verse 21 indicate that Jesus allowed time that that situation would be rectified, that those involved would turn around and cease the false prophesying or toleration of it. The key point is that Jesus allowed time rather than applying the absolute judgment of Deuteronomy 18-20-22. That action attributed to Jesus indicates quite strongly that the judgment of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 is not the one Jesus applies toward his followers. In that case we should not apply that standard either.

  As for Zep, I afford to him/her the same regard as I do for anyone else, that they have their views and are able to defend them if they so wish. I also have affection for Zep just as I do for you, waiting, and all my other fellow humans. Nothing I say should be interpreted as anything less.

  Friend
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  waiting

  Well, Friend, I guess you're somewhat like me and Zep. It's Saturday night, and you have nothing better to do but visit with unseen people on the web.....Sorry if I jumped too soon. Zep's kinda cute, like my youngest boy. I marvel at their thinking processes sometimes. Guess I can be somewhat like a witnanny?

  I really don't see that our discussion has major different views, however. Thank you for expounding on your points. Sometimes your questions are vague and hard to pinpoint for answering.

  Your discussion of Revelation makes sense - and then that could be applied to every false prophet and no religion should denigrate another for their prophesies not coming to pass. We have no way of knowing how long Jesus will allow false prophesying to continue.

  For the Society, false interpretations have been going on for over 100 years. Perhaps a blink to Jesus, perhaps not. That is his decision. Should we follow a false prophet? And how do we determine which false prophet to follow, since Jesus allows them to continue with his grace?

  If Jesus allows false prophets, then how could the Society have any justification in attacking other churches for being false prophets?

  True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end to the world," even annoncing a specific date. Some have gathered groups of people with them and fled to the hills or withdrawn into their houses waiting for the end. Yet, nothing happened. The "end" did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?

  Missing was the full measure of evidence required in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them.

  But what about today? Today we have the evidence required, all of it. And it is overwhelming! All the many, many parts of the grat sign of the "last days' are here, together with verifying Bible chronology.

  Awake! 10/8/68, p. 23

  Jehovah, the God of the true prophets, will put all false prophets to shame either by not fulfilling the false prediction of such self-assuming prophets or by having His own prophecies fulfilled in a way opposite to that predicted by the false prophets. False prophets will try to hid their reason for feeling shame by denying who they really are. They will try to avoid being killed or being pronounced spiritually dead by Jehovah's loyal worshipers.Paradise Restored to Mankind By Theocracy, 1972 p. 353,354

  Jesus's words in Revelation seem to be much kinder than the WTBTS's in dealing with makers of false prophecies.

  waiting
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  Pathofthorns

  "This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct...." (Watchtower, July 15, 1922 p. 217)

  "That is one reason for which I believe the subject text refers to those claiming divine inspiration for prediction rather than those trying to explain what they believe based upon what someone else has said."- (Friend, July 8, 2000)
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  Seven

  Zep, I've been doing much reading on the subject of prophecy and have discovered much of what I thought prophets were all about wasn't even close.
  They spent much of their time delivering God's message about the here and now, sometimes overlapping into predictions of the future. There are many passages and happenings that I have questions about and can't begin to comprehend but then maybe it's all just a matter of individual interpretation-with some help from God. Look at how many centuries these discussions have taken place and there are just certain aspects of it that we will never understand. "If a prophecy does come true-does it guarantee that the prophet is from God? No. The more you near your destination, the more you slip-sliding away.-Paul
  Simon
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  Zep

  7:you sound as confused as i do!, theres just too many questions....!

  OK Friend, I beleive that they claim 2) normally and 1) when convenient.

  When convenient, they say this:

  Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’ The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: "We have not the gift of prophecy." (January 1883, page 425) "Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible." (December 15, 1896, page 306) The Watchtower has also said that the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit "does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes." (May 15, 1947, page 157) The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic." (August 15, 1950, page 263) "The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)" — February 15, 1981, page 19.

  What do they say inspiration is???

  Insight, pages 1202-4, "inspiration" is:
  The quality or state of being moved by or produced under the direction of a spirit from a superhuman source. When that source is Jehovah, the result is a pronouncement or writings that are truly the word of God.... The men used to write the Scriptures therefore cooperated with the operation of Jehovah’s holy spirit. They were willing and submissive to God’s guidance...., eager to know God’s will and leading.... God directed them so that what they wrote coincided with and fulfilled his purpose. As spiritual men, their hearts and minds were attuned to God’s will, they ‘had the mind of Christ’ and so were not setting down mere human wisdom nor a "vision of their own heart," as false prophets did.

  A prophecy, according to Vol 2. of Insight on the Scriptures, pages 690, 691, is:

  An inspired message; a revelation of divine will and purpose or the proclamation thereof. Prophecy may be an inspired moral teaching, an expression of a divine command or judgment, or a declaration of something to come. As shown under PROPHET, prediction, or foretelling, is not the basic thought conveyed by the root verbs in the original languages.... yet it forms an outstanding feature of Bible prophecy.... The Source of all true prophecy is Jehovah God.

  A prophet, according to Vol 2. of Insight on the Scriptures, page 694, is

  One through whom divine will and purpose are made known.

  They've said this

  Whom has God actually used as his prophet?.... Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them.... Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths.

  and this:

  As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it. The abundance of spiritual food and the amazing details of Jehovah’s purposes that have been revealed to Jehovah’s anointed witnesses are clear evidence that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a "faithful and discreet slave" class that would be used to dispense God’s progressive revelations in these last days.

  and this:

  Who controls the organization, who directs it? Who is at the head? A man? A group of men? A clergy class? A pope? A hierarchy? A council? No, none of these. How is that possible? In any organization is it not necessary that there be a directing head or policy-making part that controls or guides the organization? Yes. Is the living God, Jehovah, the Director of the theocratic Christian organization? Yes!

  Yes yes Yes..!

  The holy spirit, which Jehovah prophesied that he would pour out in the last days, has not ceased to operate, for the remnant are still baptizing disciples of Christ in the name of that spirit.... The announced purpose behind God’s pouring out of his spirit upon all sorts of flesh was that the recipients thereof might prophesy. The facts substantiate that the remnant of Christ’s anointed disciples have been doing that prophesying to all the nations for a witness in favor of God’s kingdom. Logically, then, they must be the ones upon whom God’s spirit has actually been poured out. That spirit is behind their worldwide preaching. Why argue about it?

  Found this in recently in YOU CAN LIVE FOREVER IN PARADISE ON EARTH

  "...But do they not rely on human wisdom in making decisions.No, being governed theocratically, they follow the example of the early governing body in Jerusalem, whose decisions were based on God's word and were made under the direction of holy spirit!

  Theres too much, they just make no sense.Its all over at Osarsif if you wanna check it out!

  http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm
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  waiting

  Hey Zep,

  The secret of creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. Albert Einstein

  You are an amazement with all this proper English.
  I really thought you were just a ditz - you're quite accomplished!

  Thanks for the Insight quotes.

  waiting
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  Zep

  A ditz, geez...well thanks Waiting!.
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  Friend

  waiting

  It is true the Bible indicates that Jesus allows some time that a false prophet leave off or correct their false prophesying, yet, as you imply, nothing suggests that Jesus would tolerate false prophesying for an indefinite time.

  As for the difference between the Society and the Catholic Church, one has uttered falsities for a few decades and the other for more than a millennia. Compounding that error is that the Catholic Church has insisted on the same error(s) while the Society has for the most part shifted from one error to another. At least one of them has demonstrated a willingness to change when error is obvious. Do you think that at all provides a redeeming feature?

  Zep

  If you feel that normally the Society claims divine power to predict the future with absolute certainty then I must insist upon a reference to that end. I think the Society always has asserted that it—the faithful slave—prophesies in the manner of interpreting God’s already expressed will. I do not know of any instances where they have claimed as you assert.

  You cited several references in an attempt to evidence the correctness of your conclusions. The problem is that you can read those same citations and also conclude as I have; they can be understood either way. In that case, we must then look for explicit—unambiguous—comments in order to determine what manner of prophesying they claim, as you say or as I say. Below I will quote one such reference. To my knowledge the ideology contained therein regarding the dispensation of Bible knowledge has never been overturned.

  To our understanding this would not imply that "that servant" or steward, used as a channel for the circulation of the "meat in due season," would be the originator of the meat, nor inspired, nor infallible. Quite to the contrary, we may be sure that whoever the Lord will so use, as a truth-distributing agent, will be very humble and unassuming, as well as very zealous for the Master’s glory; so that he would not think of claiming authorship or ownership of the truth, but would merely dispense it zealously, as his Master’s gift, t the Master’s "servants" and "Household""—Studies IN THE Scriptures series IV, 1905.

  As for Osarsif’s web site, yes, I have read it. Some of it I agree with and some of it is pure nonsense.

  Friend
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  Pathofthorns

  Friend:

  While the Society does not insist that they are infallible or divinely inspired the reality is that a large number of Witnesses behave like they are. The expression "The Society says..." while discouraged for appearances sake, still is used as if to lend weight to a matter when an individual is enforcing a "rule" or looking for some authority to what he has to say.

  The Society also fails to put any disclaimer on their literature stating that we are simply a Bible Society and this is what we feel at the present time is a reasonable viewpoint or interpretation of a certain passage. Rather they continue to claim to be a "channel" or some sort of means for God to convey his truths to mankind. Interpretations continue to be dogmatically stated until they mysteriously disappear as they become replaced with "new light".

  People continue to be disfellowshipped for holding to a different viewpoint on certain matters which are not directly commented on by the scriptures.

  While the Catholic Church may be guilty of greater sins throughout history, they do appear to have made efforts to make ammends by acknowledging their error and appologizing for their sins. The Church is infinitely more tolerant of others viewpoints and doctrinal concessions such as those made recently regarding hellfire have been made.

  We have also made changes and progress too, but there is still much more to be done as there is to be done in the Catholic Church.

  Path

  Edited by - Pathofthorns on 9 July 2000 22:35:20
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  waiting

  Friend,

  I said:
  

  For the Society, false interpretations have been going on for over 100 years. Perhaps a blink to Jesus, perhaps not. That is his decision. Should we follow a false prophet? And how do we determine which false prophet to follow, since Jesus allows them to continue with his grace?

  You said:
  

  As for the difference between the Society and the Catholic Church, one has uttered falsities for a few decades and the other for more than a millennia. Compounding that error is that the Catholic Church has insisted on the same error(s) while the Society has for the most part shifted from one error to another. At least one of them has demonstrated a willingness to change when error is obvious. Do you think that at all provides a redeeming feature?

  This quote is from SaintsAlive site about the false prophecies of the Mormon founder, John Smith:

  52) "…56 YEARS SHOULD WIND UP THE SCENE."

  Here is an example of Smith's own prophecies of the Second Coming from 1835 with which the above prophecy agreed: "President [Joseph] Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zionóour trials and sufferings…[that we should]…go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord was nighóeven 56 years should wind up the scene."

  Now 56 years would make the year of the Lord's coming 1891, which would agree with all of the preceding prophecies on this subject, but which would disagree with reality and history!

  Smith later added that if he met with a violent end, the scene would wind up a good ten years earlier. Well, 1881 and 1891 came and went without the return of Christ. Another specific test of exact prophecy and another failure.

  If you will notice, this was #52 of approx. 60 false, or unfulfilled prophecies by this man.

  2Pet. 3:8, However, let this one fact not be escaping your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thougsand years and a thousand years as one day.

  To reiterate, Jesus has patience with false prophets, we don't know for how long. It might be safe to assume his days are viewed like Jehovah views days, however. A year, a decade, a century, a millinum - it's Jesus' choice.

  Many churches have made false prophecies (I'm really not aware of the Catholic Church prophecying - they just want to rule everyone.) However, John Smith, founder of the Mormons, would be considered a contemporary of CT Russell, and both of them uttered false prophecies. And both men sound rather bizarre by today's standards, btw.

  I believe my question stands. In view of the many false prophets, and not knowing how long Jesus will allow them time to turn around, how do we determine who to follow?

  waiting

  Edited by - waiting on 9 July 2000 22:43:20