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Edited by - SolidSender on 10 August 2000 4:48:27
JW prophets or not!!
by Zep 52 Replies latest watchtower bible
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BitterTruth
Hi Friend:
You said:
"Consider the thread titled "The Changes in our beliefs" on witnesses.net’s Main Discussion Forum. You will see that the text of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 has not real application toward Christians when it comes to judgment."
Yes, you are right...because its much, much worse than anything described in Deut 18, for "false prophet-christians" today...the penaties much more severe...
Let me explain...
A FALSE PROPHET under Deut 18 (Mosiac Law) received...Death in Sheol...a later resurrection possible.
A FALSE PROPHET under the "Law of Christ -- New Covenant-breaker" receives....death in Gehenna...no resurrection possible... -- Hebrews 10:26
that's the difference...and the ONLY difference.
So Deut 18, taken from the old Mosiac Law, when contrasted with the now operative, Law of Christ, and its propound effects upon footstep followers of Jesus today, the so-called members of the "New Covenant" are clearly seen to be much more severe in judgment.
That's "judgment"...
Therefore, modern-day christians, members of the New Covenant, are thus, duty-bound and even more responsible, than members and followers of the Mosiac Law Covenant, to adhere to the "terms" of the New Covenant Law completely, and stay away from ALL FORMS OF LYING, ...
and that's what "false prophesying is...a horrific form of LYING...
but lying in the Name of God...
then too it is LYING on Jehovah God Himself, since you said "God said it..." when He really didn't.
The "judgment" and "penalty" upon False prophets-christians, members of the New Covenant, these "lawless" ones, as described in The Law of Christ itself, then has included in it, even MORE SEVERE penalties to be inflicted upon those who wish to practice FALSE PROPHECY, as a line of regular employment...wherein the penalties and "judgements" rendered to such ones are found to be, much more severe than the old Mosiac Law, when we make the desired comparison.
So you are right there!
Paul makes that comparison for us at Hebrews 10:28, 29 where he states under inspiration:
"And man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more SEVERE A PUNISHMENT, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?"
And that's what a modern-day, "false prohet"/Christian does...Nuff said.
BT
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Friend
SolidSender
You said:
waiting hi. you're right, the questions from readers are a total sham. i can get the proof if you'd like to see it but essentially the scenario is as you describe - a complete farce - they sit there and write and answer them themselves. the purpose of which most of the time is to bolster a regulation.
I’d love to see that, proof of your claim that is. On the subject I don’t think evidence amounting to proof is available to you. We will see.
BitterTruth
A FALSE PROPHET under Deut 18 (Mosiac Law) received...Death in Sheol...a later resurrection possible.
A FALSE PROPHET under the "Law of Christ -- New Covenant-breaker" receives....death in Gehenna...no resurrection possible... -- Hebrews 10:26
that's the difference...and the ONLY difference.
No, that is not the only difference, assuming the difference you suggest is true. Whether God will resurrect those whom he condemned in the first place is debatable, but that is really neither here nor there for our discussion here. Regardless, a fundamental difference that apparently escaped your notice is this: Deuteronomy 18:20-22 provided no alternative to condemnation of the false prophet whereas actions attributed to Jesus demonstrate that false prophets among Christians are not necessarily condemned; they could change and remain as Christians; Jesus allowed them time for just that. How could you miss such a basic point?
Please keep in mind that Jesus certainly was not condoning false prophecy, he was merely approaching the problem differently and with more mercy for the offender or those supporting them. If such an offender refused to change then as far as we can tell, yes, they would eventually—we don’t know how soon—be denounced and condemned.
Hebrews 10:28, 29… Of how much more SEVERE A PUNISHMENT, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God….
Who do you think is the better judge of persons that may or may not be trampling on the Son of God, you or the Son of God? If it is the Son of God then perhaps you should more carefully consider his allowance of time that false prophets among Christians are allowed some time for change.
Friend
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BitterTruth
Friend,
Christians...all christians have a responsibility to JUDGE...I'm surprised that this has escaped your perusal too...since you are so learned in the scriptures and all...
Yes, "Friend," that's ALL WRONGDOERS WITHIN THE CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION can be JUDGED....JUDGED...JUDGED...JUDGED...by their FELLOW CHRISTIAN BROTHERS...the congregation as a whole...That is a fact...a Bible-based fact. -- Carefully review 1 Cor. 5:12.
Paul said that even "angels, or we ourselves [the apostles]" if caught practicing sin by teaching things they ought not, yes, could be viewed as "accursed"...now that's "accursed"...condemned...rejected. -- Gal. 1:8-10
So....believe it or not, your precious WTS and its Governing Body CAN BE SCRIPTURALLY JUDGED!
1 Corinthians 5:12 clearly shows this.
TIME TO REPENT...
Sure Jesus, as well as all of Christians, will give any one who is TRULY SINCERE, CONTRITE IN SPIRIT, and expresses GENUINE GODLY SORROW of the committing the wrong, yes, TIME TO REPENT...that is if they are showing and amply demonstrating the "fruits that befit repentance." -- See Matthew 3:8
That's "fruits that befit repentance."
But we don't any evidence of that, do we?
Friend, it is clear, you do not know how the WTS deals with anyone who even attempts to point out an error to the WTS, aka "Faithful and Discreet Slave" Class. You are discussing the matter with one who knows...
Friend...They are promptly disfellowshiped.
Ever heard of Raymond Franz...?
I was an "eye-witness" to this whole scene.
Now, if you want to believe that the WTS can "practice wholesale FALSE PROPHESYING", as we know they have for over 120 years, [the date of 1914, invisible parousia, 607 bce, etc.] and Jesus Christ is just going to simply look the other way...this even in the face of the fact that the WTS does not even show not ONE OUNCE, NOT ONE BIT OF REPENTANCE, not one ounce...
You are greatly mistaken...greatly mistaken...
Please consider the following verses which pertain to CHRISTIANS WHO PRACTICE SIN WILLFULLY...such as the WTS does on a daily basis...
This pertains to anointed christians who PRACTICE Sin...
"Everyone who has been born from God DOES NOT CARRY ON SIN, because His [reproductive] seed remains in such one, and HE CANNOT PRACTICE SIN, because he has been born from God. The children of God and the children of the DEVIL are evident by this fact: Everyone who DOES NOT carry on righteousness DOES NOT originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother." --1 John 3:9,10
Is the WTS immune to these verses....?
Have they shown true "love" for their brothers...when it comes to ADMITTING THAT THEY HAVE DONE WRONG, on a grand scale...before all of the brothers? Taught wrong, prophesied wrong, over and over again... Have they done this?
I'll tell you what they have done for us...they have taught us, so "adroitly" too...
the "commandments of men,"...
Now isnt' that wonderful???
Hmmmm.
Yes, they have taught us many things...like...their word over God's...Just as the wicked Pharisees and Sadduccees unrepentantly did. -- Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:8, 9
Can you personally, deny that they haven't?
Take for example: Field Service Reports...
Have you turned yours in "Friend" for last month? Better do so, less you get a phone call from one of the elders real soon. According to the Secretary, your "Time" has to be turned in at least by the 5-6th of the month...or is the 10th...I forget...
Yes, EVERYONE MUST TURN IN FIELD SERVICE REPORTS...count all the books, magazines, return visits, Bible studies...hours...a requirement for all Jehovah's Witnesses...
Now where is that taught in the Bible?...Where, Friend?
And the "commandment" itself, runs totally completely contrary to what Jesus explicity taught about "giving your gifts of mercy" in "SECRET." Completely counter to these clear Christian instructions. -- See Matt. 6:1-4
Do these verses NOT apply to the WTS?
Do they?
Are you telling me that the WTS, and particularly the Governing Body members, who admittedly all claim to be anointed, that's the G.B., can indeed, in the Name of Jehovah... "practice sin"... through the printed publications?
Is that what you are telling me?
But what if they decide to "repent," ...yes, Repentance...but, after 120 years of lying...in the printed publications...all the while condemning everyone else???
If you are going to "repent,"...then do what John the Baptist said..."produce the fruits that befit repentance,"..."fruits" that we have not seen...not one bit of it.
2 Timothy 2:19 says:
"...Let EVERYONE [WTS included] Naming the Name of Jehovah RENOUNCE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS."
And of course, who "Names the Name of Jehovah," MORE THAN THE WTS...who?
And you think, Jehovah God and Jesus is going to turn their heads and look the other way, on all of that FALSE PROPHESYING, that even you admit they have done...this they willingly "practice," in the printed publications...for now over 120 years?
If you "Friend," decided to "practice sin," say "fornication," or even "lying" on your "income Tax" returns, or something of this nature...
How much TIME WOULD THE WTS GIVE YOU TO REPENT...
How about 120 years?....think that would work?
And yet, you imagine that Jehovah and Jesus is going to do even more than that...Jesus and Jehovah will look the other way...at these totally unrepentant people...with over 120 years of sinning to their credit?
You say,
"well you never know...they may repent..."
What???
You are greatly mistaken...
How can the WTS continue to "practice," LYING... False Prophesying...and Maintain a Covenant-Relationship with God...120 years of it?
How is that possible, according to the above verses cited?
Ask yourself...What is the meaning of the scriptures mentioned above?
How about this one?
"...ALL LIARS, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death." -- Revelation 21:8
That's "ALL LIARS"....ALL, ALL...What does "ALL" mean to you, "Friend?"....
Why is that warning there?
Why did it say "ALL liars," why?
As if God is going to leave someone, some unrepentant sinner OUT...like the WTS...I don't think so.
If we, as Jehovah's Witnesses, 5-6 million strong, can muster up the nerve and gall...to go from door-to-door and preach destruction and damnation upon the "wicked" among Christendom...all around the world, condemn everybody, the governments as wicked, the churches...even condemn those who simply fail to JOIN OUR RANKS...condemn them too...
but...God forbid... we DARE NOT speak a disparaging word about the WTS...as being transgressors against Jehovah God..., when know FULL WELL they are a bunch PRACTICING LIARS, FALSE PROPHETS, and CHEATS, who will attack and "seek to destroy" any and everyone that even attempts to offer counsel toward their wicked ways...
who are you kidding?
Listen, Romans 2:21-23 clearly says:
"..do you, however, the one teaching someone else, not teach yourself? You, the one preaching "Do not steal," do you steal? You, the one saying "Do not commit adultery, do you commit adultery,...You, who take pride in law, do you by your transgressing of the Law dishonor God?"
Who does more "teaching," and "preaching," than the WTS...who? I want to know who?
So, we Jehovah's Witnesses, and WTS, preach one thing...we preach..."do not lie...do not prophesy falsely"...but we practice it outselves, our leaders daily, year in and year out...and we willingly support them, as you are doing now, and yet, somehow, we are going to escape God's Wrath...
You must be joking...
Paul said WE CAN INDEED, JUDGE those who, UNREPENTANTLY PRACTICE SIN, these ones that are in the INSIDE of the congregation...and the WTS is surely ON THE INSIDE.
1 Cor. 5:12 says:
"For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge THOSE INSIDE..."
Yes, we "judge those who are INSIDE..." We do...You may not. That's your choice...But the Bible gives all faithful Christians allowance to do so...That's what Paul recommended for all christians...
ALL CHRISTIANS HAVE A DUTY AND MORAL OBLIGATION TO JUDGE THOSE WHO ARE INSIDE THE CONGREGATION AND WHO UNREPENTANTLY PRACTICE SIN...and that surely includes the WTS and all of their FALSE PROPHESYING!
Now, if you want to believe otherwise...be my guest...that's your prerogative...but
but...if you do...your viewpoint is clearly not BIBLE-BASED, and non-representative of the "God of Israel," who IS NOT partial in his judgment of ALL WICKED ONES.
BT
Edited by - BitterTruth on 11 July 2000 12:36:49
Edited by - BitterTruth on 12 July 2000 19:37:13
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RedhorseWoman
I don’t know about JWs being the happiest people alive, but I can tell you that mainstream JWs do very much enjoy their community and the association that it brings. They also enjoy having a pretty clear hope for the future other than eventual and eternal nonexistence. I guess those two things combined would tend to allow for a good measure of joy in living.
From my experience, Friend, this statement is not particularly accurate. I have seen many, many JW's who aspire to that joy (and feel that they SHOULD be joyful), but who are constantly being made to feel inadequate.
They are constantly striving to accomplish everything they "should" do. Most take no time to enjoy their relationship with God, but rather berate themselves for not having done enough. And, in turn, they are constantly being admonished from the platform to do more.
The association could be very upbuilding; however, in most of the congregations I was familiar with, the only ones who enjoyed association were the ones in the cliques....which were generally made up of those with money or power.
I have been personally acquainted with many "happy" JW's living quiet lives of desperation, hoping that somehow they will be judged as being adequate to have a hope for the future.
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Friend
BT
I am not kidding anyone. I have shared a few factual scriptural representations regarding falsely prophesying. If you don’t like those facts then complain to God. Venting yourself as you have in this case—which venting is, by the way, full of loaded and presumptive language—does nothing but divert from the few basic points I provided. If you don’t like the way one person or another applies those scriptural points then, fine, lambaste them. I have not made such applications as you have implied.
RedhorseWoman
I do not deny that some have had the experience you describe, in fact I personally know of individuals who have felt or feel the same way. It would be a mistake, though, to conclude that because some have had a similarly stressing experience that all the smiles are then counterfeit or that the majority is not happy. I also know that quite a few are genuinely happy for the reasons I provided. Likely you also know at least a few who fit that same description as I offered.
Friend
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BitterTruth
Friend,
Perhaps, Jehovah's Witnesses as well as yourself, one day will learn to "hate what is bad..." as in FALSE PROPHESYING. That's "hate what is bad...."
Quit "whitewashing it," and just hate it, hate the practice of it...and denounce it...that's your christian duty...
Instead of trying to justify the wicked one, and explain away why he can be tolerated within the congreation and viewed as holy and righteous.
And yet, you judge other christians, every day, every day you disfellowship the lower ones, you shun them, every day, in every congregation around the world...you do this...
so...so. you do judge the wicked one, you do know how to "judge" those within the congregation... don't you...but only the "lowly one," who is wicked...who has no voice...isn't that so?
So...so... quit telling brothers in the faith, that they CANNOT JUDGE THE WRONGDOER...even the WTS...because they can. - 1 Cor. 5:12
False Prophesying should NOT be tolerated, winked at, as you have, and as you teach, even if it is present among not only those of professed christians among Christendom, even among our OWN SPIRITUAL HOUSEHOLD...
Jehovah God requires the following attitude from all servants of His, concerning FALSE PROPHETS...
"And it must occur that in case a man should prophesy anymore, his father and his mother, the ones who caused his birth, must also say to him, 'You will not live, because FALSEHOOD is what you have spoken in the NAME OF JEHOVAH.' And his father and mother, the ones who caused his birth must pierce him through because of his [FALSE] prophesying." -- Zechariah 13:3
Maybe we could learn a little lesson from such a verse, about Jehovah's personality...and How HE (and Jesus) FEELS about FALSE PROPHETS IN HIS HOUSEHOLD.
...you should more carefully consider his allowance of time that false prophets among Christians are allowed some time for change.
Yes, they can be allowed time for change...but not 120 years...so this DOES NOT APPLY TO THE WTS...sorry it doesn't.
But if the WTS wants to play the "false prophet," and put Jehovah God and Jesus to the "test," ... hmmmmm. Well, in the meantime, we christians, all the while they continue to pursue their false prophesying career, from their lofty tower at Bethel, NY, yes, we can continue to JUDGE THEM, yes, Judge them, and condemn their evil ways...all the the time they continue to prophesy falsely and have not decided that they want to repent as yet or not.
That's my point.
BT
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RedhorseWoman
Friend, yes there are those who are genuinely happy, and for these being a JW is a blessing.
However, to state as the Society does many times that the JW's are "the happiest people on earth" is more of an advertising ploy than a fact and is in no way beneficial.
I have seen brothers and sisters who were striving with all their might to do the best they could be struck down emotionally by elders who felt it was their duty to chastise these ones in order to improve their performance...whether it be meeting attendance or service.
I have seen the joy turn to anguish as these brothers berated themselves for being inadequate.
Having a relationship with God SHOULD bring much joy. However, the regulations governing every aspect of worship....from counting time, to proper manner of praying, to appropriate dress length, to leisure activities....simply weigh down the spirit.
In far too many cases, being one of the "happiest people on earth" is an elusive goal, which causes much heartache to those that blame themselves for not feeling such joy.
I wish there were a way to communicate this to those who could make a difference so that they would listen. I've tried in the past, but to no avail.
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waiting
Friend,
After all this reading, I really am flabbergasted, and not by your posts.
BitterTruth
Long posts, huh?
Nice to meet you.waiting
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Carmel
From what I can determine, so far, every false prophet has died or is still alive! They'll die too! Any wagers to the contrary? I do the stock market thing so this looks to me as one that you can take to the bank. Know any OT prophets, false or otherwise, still hanging around? Seems that the non-false prophets all bite the dust too!
carmel