Time of the end - a TRINITY puzzler.

by BoogerMan 44 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @MeanMrMustard

    It is telling that in every serious debate on the Trinity—or any essential Christian doctrine—the discussion quickly reveals that the real issue is not simply about one verse or another, but about the methods we use to interpret Scripture, the weight we give to context, and the very nature of Christian revelation itself.

    You mockingly reduce the debate to “wiggling and squinting” on both sides, as if Trinitarians and Unitarians alike are simply “forcing” their views onto the text. But this is a shallow caricature, not an argument. What you label as “wiggling” is, in fact, the work of centuries of rigorous engagement with the totality of divine revelation, always seeking to avoid the fatal error of proof-texting. Catholic theology rejects the notion that a doctrine should—or even could—stand or fall on an isolated verse.

    The danger of “proof-texting”—the uncritical stringing together of isolated verses, as if each could be treated as a self-contained slogan—is a perennial temptation, not just for fundamentalist sects but for any interpreter seeking shortcuts. The Catholic Church, grounded in the Fathers and illuminated by the Holy Spirit, has always warned against this. The Bible is not a random anthology of one-liners, but the inspired and organic testimony of God’s self-revelation in history, culminating in Christ. Every verse is inspired, but not every verse is equal in weight, nor can it be properly understood in isolation from the whole.

    Consider the example: If someone quotes “God is love” (1 John 4:8) to claim that God must approve of all human actions, they have grossly distorted the text by ignoring its context, which is about keeping the commandments and living in the light. The same error occurs when someone cites a verse about Jesus referring to the Father as “my God” (e.g., John 20:17) and triumphantly concludes, “See, Jesus cannot be God!”—as if the entire tradition of Christian reflection, the nuanced development of Christology, and the context of the Incarnation could be dismissed with a single citation.

    This is not just a “Catholic” complaint, but a basic principle of interpretation in any serious academic or literary discipline: context is king. The meaning of a text arises from its setting, its purpose, its place within a larger narrative or argument. No responsible reader treats the Bible as a collection of fortune cookies or magical incantations.

    Catholic exegesis—indeed, all orthodox Christian exegesis—insists that:

    • Scripture must be read as a unity, not a grab-bag.
    • Every text is interpreted in the light of the whole, especially the New Testament as the fulfillment of the Old.
    • The historical and literary context matters; the Church listens to the voice of the apostles, the Fathers, the liturgy, and the consensus of the faithful guided by the Spirit.
    • Doctrine is not the result of a “mic drop” proof-text, but of wrestling with the entire sweep of revelation, often across centuries, testing, purifying, and clarifying the faith handed down once for all.

    When it comes to the Trinity, it is true—there are verses that, taken out of context, could be read to deny Christ’s deity. There are verses that, taken out of context, could be read to support it. But the Church has always insisted on both: the full humanity and full deity of Christ, the unity of God and the distinction of persons, because this is what the whole of Scripture reveals and what the apostles proclaimed.

    To dismiss the need for theological integration as “wiggling” is not to be neutral or balanced; it is to abdicate the duty to seek truth beyond the superficial. The doctrine of the Trinity does not rest on a single verse, nor does it dodge contrary texts; rather, it arises from the sustained meditation on the entire mystery of Christ, read in the light of the apostolic faith. The “wiggling” you ridicule is the careful, patient harmonization of all the biblical data, refusing to twist one part of Scripture against another, as heretics have always done.

    The Catholic Church, from the earliest centuries, recognized the danger of treating Scripture as a patchwork of slogans and demanded that it be received in the living tradition of the Church, guided by the Spirit. This is why the canon was defined, heresies were condemned, and the Nicene Creed became the “rule of faith”—not because the technical terms “Trinity” or “homoousios” appear in the Bible, but because they safeguard the mystery the Bible as a whole reveals.

    To the charge that “nobody is reading your entire posts,” let me say this: The mystery of God is not reducible to soundbites, and the life of faith is not sustained by slogans. The brevity demanded by modern impatience is not a virtue when it comes to the greatest mysteries of human existence. If you are unwilling to read, to ponder, to let your convictions be challenged by the best the tradition has to offer, then you have already decided the outcome, not on the basis of reason or revelation, but on convenience and prejudice.

    In summary, Catholic interpretation of Scripture does not pretend to “mic drop” with a single verse. It strives, with humility and perseverance, to hear the voice of God in the fullness of revelation, in the unity of Scripture, tradition, and the living faith of the Church. It is this patient, integrated, and Spirit-guided approach that alone does justice to the depth of the Christian mystery—while the shallow “proof-texting” of sectarians, and the lazy relativism of skeptics, both betray the Bible’s true grandeur.

    As St. Augustine wrote, “If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” Faith seeks understanding, not shortcuts. The truth is more profound than your memes, and more beautiful than your dismissals. If you truly want to know what the Church teaches, you will find, not “wiggling,” but wisdom—rooted in the fullness of Christ, “in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” (Col 2:3).

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    @aqwsed,

    You should have stopped after your second paragraph. You read and responded to my post well before the 30 minute edit time expired. And you did so with a large post. You type very quickly... very quickly.

    It is telling that in every serious debate on the Trinity—or any essential Christian doctrine—the discussion quickly reveals that the real issue is not simply about one verse or another, but about the methods we use to interpret Scripture, the weight we give to context, and the very nature of Christian revelation itself.

    Yeah. Thats why I was starting with common definitions. We haven't really gotten into that too much. But try for short, concise.

    You mockingly reduce the debate to “wiggling and squinting” on both sides, as if Trinitarians and Unitarians alike are simply “forcing” their views onto the text. But this is a shallow caricature, not an argument.

    Both sides spit out scriptures. You are putting out walls of text. Both sides have fundamentally different views of foundational concepts, even language.

    What you label as “wiggling” is, in fact, the work of centuries of rigorous engagement with the totality of divine revelation, always seeking to avoid the fatal error of proof-texting.

    And to people just reading the Bible, that looks a lot like reading your meaning into the scriptures.

    Catholic theology rejects the notion that a doctrine should—or even could—stand or fall on an isolated verse.

    Right. Take a look at my first post in the thread. I was sarcastically attempting to convey this very thought ..

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @MeanMrMustard

    You’re absolutely right that both sides often bring a flood of verses and that foundational assumptions shape how those verses are understood. But your reply—“to people just reading the Bible, that looks a lot like reading your meaning into the scriptures”—is exactly the crux of why method matters, and why “just reading the Bible” is never as neutral or self-evident as it seems.

    You insist on brevity and “common definitions,” but these are never neutral or self-standing. As soon as we talk about “God,” “person,” “nature,” or even “Bible,” we are already interpreting. The very act of choosing which verses matter, how to relate the Old and New Testaments, how to weigh historical background, what to do with paradoxes or mystery—all of this is interpretation, whether we admit it or not.

    The problem isn’t with “walls of text” but with the illusion that one can bypass centuries of reflection, debate, and suffering for the truth, and simply start fresh “just reading” as if no one ever did so before. The reason Christians “spit out scriptures” isn’t to overwhelm, but because the Christian revelation is organic, woven together over centuries, and the heart of the faith is not reducible to a slogan. Every heresy in Church history began with someone “just reading the Bible” and refusing to listen to the faith community that wrote, transmitted, and preserved it.

    To your point: yes, there’s a danger of “reading your meaning” into the text. But there’s an equal danger—much greater, in fact—of pretending that “plain reading” is free from assumptions. Protestant, Catholic, Unitarian, or skeptic: every reader comes to the Bible with a context, a tradition, and a set of inherited questions. The Catholic view at least admits this openly and seeks to check interpretation against the living faith of the Church, guided by the Spirit, not the ever-shifting impressions of individuals or the fashions of the age.

    If anything, the example from Matthew 24:36 actually confirms the point I am making: the “plain reading” approach only appears simple if one ignores the complexities of the text, its canonical context, and the theological claims Christianity has always made about Christ. Of course, someone who picks up a Bible and reads, “the Son does not know, only the Father,” may initially think this means Jesus is not God. But for nearly two millennia, the entire Christian tradition—across language, culture, and denomination—has been wrestling with how the Scriptures as a whole present Jesus: as both truly God and truly man, possessing a human intellect and will as well as a divine intellect and will. The point is not to “read in” our conclusions, but to interpret each passage in the light of the whole, refusing to allow one verse to negate the fullness of what the Gospels reveal.

    To treat the verse in Matthew as if it were a gotcha—“aha, the Trinity is refuted!”—misses how doctrine develops. The Church’s response is not to ignore or explain away such passages, but to wrestle with their meaning: Christ, as man, could say He did not know, precisely because in His humanity He freely accepted the limitations of human knowledge, while in His divinity, nothing is hidden from Him. This isn’t an arbitrary harmonization, but a reflection of what the Church has always confessed: “true God and true man.” It is only shallow proof-texting that refuses to hold these truths together, that seeks the “plain meaning” at the cost of the mystery.

    Your sarcasm about the Pope “overlooking” Matthew 24:36 makes my point for me. Of course the Church knows these verses—she has prayed, pondered, and preached them for centuries. If the truth were as simple as a single verse, there would never have been a controversy. But the very existence of centuries of debate, heresies, and councils testifies that Scripture is not self-interpreting, and that genuine understanding requires patience, humility, and reverence for the depth of God’s self-disclosure.

    So, yes, let’s begin with definitions. But let’s not pretend that slogans or isolated texts settle the matter. What is required is not less thought, but more: a willingness to let the fullness of revelation question our assumptions, and to receive with humility the faith that was handed down—not as a quick fix, but as a living mystery to be entered into, not mastered. That is why the Catholic Church never “mic drops” with a verse, and why her interpretation, for all its apparent “walls of text,” has endured while so many shallow certainties have faded away.

    You want conciseness? Here it is:
    The doctrine of the Trinity cannot be built on “one-liners,” nor destroyed by them. It is not an invention of clever theologians, but the Church’s humble attempt to confess what is given in the totality of revelation—a mystery that is only distorted by shortcuts and proof-texting, whether for or against. The Catholic method—always open to reason, history, context, and tradition—recognizes that no one reads the Bible in a vacuum. Every community brings its “wiggling” and “squinting.” The question is not whether we interpret, but whose interpretation bears the mark of fidelity, depth, and fruit over centuries, not just the loudest meme or the shortest post.

    The Trinity is not an escape from “just reading the Bible,” but the mature fruit of reading the whole of Scripture in the light of Christ, with the mind of the Church. If that requires a few more paragraphs—or centuries—so be it. Truth deserves the patience to be sought and received, not just asserted.

  • Halcon
    Halcon

    I believe it's revelatory that the criminal at Jesus' side was deemed worthy of salvation (heaven) by Jesus at the crucifixion.

    Here is a criminal deserving of his execution by his own admission, where scriptures give no indication that he had obtained any knowledge of Christ or his relation to the Father. Or if he had, it wasn't enough to compel him to change his ways and avoid being sentenced.

    Yet he was saved (by his expression of humility on the cross and whatever else Christ saw in his heart). It's difficult to argue that he would be the one lone exception and everyone else must have an absolute understanding of the essence of God to be saved. If it is truly the case that God "desires that all should be saved" then he won't hold our lack of comprehension against us.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @SlimBoyFat

    Interesting misquotation there. Whether it’s deliberate or unintentional, it’s telling. Matt 28:18 doesn’t say Jesus “has” all power in heaven and earth. It says he has “been given” all power in heaven and earth.

    Wrong. There is no misquotation. If I gave you ALL the Gold and Silver in the world, you have it ALL. ALL means ALL. Look it up in the dictionary if you want. It is completely irrelevant that I gave it to you. Your argument is illogical. It violates the law of non-contradiction.

    As I repeatedly point out to you and you pretend not to grasp - the problem is not with the bible. The problem is you trying to superimpose a materialistic description of man on the scriptures that utterly rejects it. This is obviously due to your previous WT training which in many ways you still hold in high regard. It was all poison, not just some of it.

    Soul, body and spirit of men are all spoken of with pronouns in the bible denoting personhood. We even have sayings that prove that deep down we all know the biblical definition is true. For instance, someone may say "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". We all experience this from time to time, especially as the body ages. Both the body and the spirit is self.

    When the spirit of Samuel was summoned by Saul, Samuel identifies his spirit as "me", even though his body was long gone.
    “Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’” (1 Samuel 28:15).


    You are not fooling anyone with your feigned ignorance. You are a smart guy. But this has nothing to do with intelligence.

    The two scriptures listed in the chart below is what you reject, alongside the triune nature of God. Jesus, as a man REQUIRES all three components to meet the definition requirements of a "man". God is a spirit. This make Jesus fully man, and fully God at the same time.

    As long as you hold on to a modern, materialistic definition of the nature of man being a body only, with no immaterial self, you will never understand the nature of God. I believe you are simply ashamed of a suffering, dying God who made you. I am not ashamed of him. That is the difference between you and I .


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