Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Diogenesister
    Diogenesister
    So are global numbers of jws in decline?

    Good question. I'd love to know. I do think numbers of Pimo are over estimated. The majority of pimo are unbaptised teenaged kids of JWs, so their numbers wouldn't be counted in the majority of cases? I'd be surprised if 1% of baptised, active JWs are full on pimo's.

  • Indoubtbigtime
    Indoubtbigtime

    From what I know most territory maps in most congregations are being done much much slower than before

    many congregations used to get round all their territory every so often, now all congregations around North London where I am (yes I’m an MS involved with territory servants) are hardly getting around their territory at all.

    of course letter writing was slow going but now back to first call hardly anyone is going out in person and those few that do don’t do that much

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    slimboyfat:

    I don’t know any religious group that defines membership as attendance.

    I don’t know why you imagine this supports your position. 🤦‍♂️ The fact that many denominations actually count adherents rather than only regular attendees only further demonstrates why their reported growth rates are lower than those reported by JWs.

    If xyz church has 100 adherents comprising 20 lapsed members and 80 regular attendees of whom 10 are young children, attendance would be reported as 80%. If 10 new people then join, their reported growth rate would be 12.5% if they count only attendees as members, but only 10% if they count all adherents as members.

    If a JW congregation has 100 adherents comprising 20 'faders' and 80 regular attendees of whom 70 are regular publishers, attendance would be reported as 114%. If 10 new people then join, their reported growth rate would be 14.3%.

    It is obvious that the JW method of counting ‘publishers’ inflates their reported growth rate.

    I haven’t verified your assertion about census reported membership in New Zealand though this is an anomaly, not a trend. For example, in Australia from 2011 to 2016, JWs ‘rose’ from 0.4% to… 0.4% of the population, and then fell to 0.3% in 2021 according to official census data. But according to JW data they went from 0.266% of the population to 0.295% to 0.272% for the same years. The percentages for 2011 to 2021 well demonstrate that the JW-reported figures (increased) cannot reliably be directly compared to self-reported affiliation data (decreased).

  • ThomasMore
    ThomasMore

    I am amazed that anyone here on this forum still thinks that WTC accurately reports their numbers. They lie about anything that makes them look bad, so why would they not lie about their contraction. All observations are about the same:

    • Selling KHs
    • Consolidating congregations
    • DFing anyone that disagrees with their changing doctrines
    • Shunning DF'd, DA'd and INACTIVE ones. In some cases UNPOPULAR ones
    • Low in-person meeting attendance
    • Guilting children to get baptized
    • Low retention rate of 16-25 year olds
    • Reddit ex-JW members off the charts (does not count those who read and never join)

    I don't rely on surveys since many ex-JWs are conditioned to avoid speaking out about leaving the faith. I remember when all the congs in my city were busting at the seams. Now they have sold off more than I can count, and still cannot fill the chairs in any of the KHs at any meeting - even the C.O. visit. Why are so many preferring to stay on Zoom rather than meet in person? They are fading - that's why.

    Maybe someone here is seeing something I am missing. If so, please tell me what it is because all of the above are symptoms of shrinking - not growth.

  • JW GoneBad
    JW GoneBad

    ThomasMore...your spot-on with your assessment of what's going on currently in this cult...I agree also that some on this Forum for whatever reason are in denial over the gloomy direction this cult is headed!

    I might add to your list the amount of negative thinking going-on among the rank & file who are in their 60s, 70s & 80s. I've heard many say out loud they doubt this system of things is going to end in their lifetime...that is huge! It's no secret that many Elders, Ministerial Servants, Regular Pioneers & other 'exemplary' ones are quietly/secretly thinking the same thing. Negative self-talk among the rank & file is no-bueno & there's plenty of it among the JWs...Yay! :)

  • Hellothere
    Hellothere

    Spot on both Thomasmore and jw gonebad. Know jw women conducting bible study's that dropped her student cause they kept sending her articles about child abuse in org. She said she was ashamed of being a JW. Can not be fun knocking on doors and constantly be confronted with child abuse scandals or other JW negative material from the internet. Watchtower defensa, it's only apostate lies, it's not gonna work with the public. .

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Jeffro you are the one who said other churches count attendees as members. This is not the case. I asked for an example, you supplied none. You now seem to be arguing that other churches have more adherents than members. Possibly, I don’t know, because ‘adherent’ needs to be defined consistently in order to be compared. Different churches use different measurements and call their measurements different things.

    The point I am making, and that you originally objected to, is that JWs are doing better than most other churches. You disputed this by claiming that JWs don’t present accurate growth figures, and then you referenced the relative decline (compared to the population as a whole) of JWs in the Australian census numbers between 2016 and 2021 to make your point. Great! That’s something concrete we can work with. Lets compare all the churches using your preferred measure from the Australian census. Here are the results.

    Anglicans down from 3,101,200 to 2,496,300 a decrease of 604,900 or 19.5%

    Baptists up from 345,100 to 347,300 an increase of 2200 or 0.6%

    Catholics down from 5,291,800 to 5,075,900 a decrease of 215,900 or 4.1%

    Churches of Christ down from 39,600 to 35,900 a decrease of 3700 or 9.3%

    Jehovah’s Witnesses up from 82,500 to 84,400 an increase of 1900 or 2.3%

    Mormons down from 61,600 to 57,900 a decrease of 3700 or 6.0%

    Lutherans down from 174,000 to 145,900 a decrease of 28,100 or 16.1%

    Eastern Orthodox down from 582,800 to 535,500 a decrease of 47,300 or 8.1%

    Pentecostals down from 260,600 to 259,800 a decrease of 900 or 0.3%

    Presbyterian and Reformed down from 526,700 to 414,900 a decrease of 111,800 or 21.2%

    Salvation Army down from 48,900 to 35,400 a decrease of 13,500 or 27.6%

    Seventh-day Adventists up from 62,900 to 63,700 an increase of 800 or 1.3%

    Uniting Church down from 870,200 to 673,300 a decrease of 196,900 or 22.6%

    Or to put that in descending order from the group with the highest growth to the group with the largest decrease:

    Jehovah’s Witnesses + 2.3%

    Seventh-day Adventists +1.3%

    Baptists +0.6%

    Pentecostals -0.3%

    Catholics -4.1%

    Mormons -6.0%

    Eastern Orthodox -8.1%

    Churches of Christ -9.3%

    Lutherans -16.1%

    Anglicans -19.5%

    Presbyterian and Reformed -21.2%

    Uniting Church -22.6%

    Salvation Army -27.6%

    Jeffro, according to the census numbers, do you think JWs are doing better or worse than other Christian groups?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Duplicate post

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Jeffro you are the one who said other churches count attendees as members. This is not the case. I asked for an example, you supplied none. You now seem to be arguing that other churches have more adherents than members. Possibly, I don’t know, because ‘adherent’ needs to be defined in order to be compared. Different churches use different measurements, and they call their measurements different things.

    The point I am making, and that you originally objected to, is that JWs are doing better than most other churches. This is clearly the case whatever measure you use. You disputed this by claiming that JWs don’t present accurate growth figures, and then you referenced the relative decline (compared to the population as a whole) of JWs in the Australian census numbers between 2016 and 2021 to make your point. Great! That’s something concrete we can work with. Lets compare all the churches using your preferred data from the Australian census. Here are the results.

    Anglicans down from 3,101,200 to 2,496,300 a decrease of 604,900 or 19.5%

    Baptists up from 345,100 to 347,300 an increase of 2200 or 0.6%

    Catholics down from 5,291,800 to 5,075,900 a decrease of 215,900 or 4.1%

    Churches of Christ down from 39,600 to 35,900 a decrease of 3700 or 9.3%

    Jehovah’s Witnesses up from 82,500 to 84,400 an increase of 1900 or 2.3%

    Mormons down from 61,600 to 57,900 a decrease of 3700 or 6.0%

    Lutherans down from 174,000 to 145,900 a decrease of 28,100 or 16.1%

    Eastern Orthodox down from 582,800 to 535,500 a decrease of 47,300 or 8.1%

    Pentecostals down from 260,600 to 259,800 a decrease of 900 or 0.3%

    Presbyterian and Reformed down from 526,700 to 414,900 a decrease of 111,800 or 21.2%

    Salvation Army down from 48,900 to 35,400 a decrease of 13,500 or 27.6%

    Seventh-day Adventists up from 62,900 to 63,700 an increase of 800 or 1.3%

    Uniting Church down from 870,200 to 673,300 a decrease of 196,900 or 22.6%

    Or to put that in descending order from the group with the highest growth to the group with the largest decrease:

    Jehovah’s Witnesses + 2.3%

    Seventh-day Adventists +1.3%

    Baptists +0.6%

    Pentecostals -0.3%

    Catholics -4.1%

    Mormons -6.0%

    Eastern Orthodox -8.1%

    Churches of Christ -9.3%

    Lutherans -16.1%

    Anglicans -19.5%

    Presbyterian and Reformed -21.2%

    Uniting Church -22.6%

    Salvation Army -27.6%

    Jeffro, seriously, according to those numbers, are JWs doing better, or worse, than other Christian groups? Straightforward answer please.

  • Sanchy
    Sanchy
    Slim: The JW numbers look “bad” … until you compare them with most other Christian groups which are in severe decline in the west. Compared with other Christian groups the growth of JWs bucks the trend of decline.

    Remember that every JW is an active recruiter. They spend billions of hours collectively performing that recruiting task, and thus fruitless results inflict a bigger hit on JW morale that that of the common church pew seat occupier.

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