Theocratic Warfare and Taqiyya

by aqwsed12345 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    aqwsed12345 : The presence of ΙΑΩ or the paleo-Hebrew Tetragrammaton in these manuscripts must be understood as variants or later revisions, not as evidence that they were the original translation practice of the LXX.

    While Emanuel Tov does say that the writing of the tetragrammaton in Hebrew characters in Greek revisional texts is a relatively late phenomenon, he concurs with Stegemann and Skehan that Iaw reflects the earliest attested stage in the history of the LXX translation, when the name of God was represented by its transliteration, just like any other personal name in the LXX. Tov says (Greek Biblical Texts from the Judean Desert, pp.20,21) :

    In the absence of convincing evidence in favor of any one explanation, the view of Skehan and Stegemann seems more plausible in light of the parallels provided. This argument serves as support for the view that 4Q120 reflects the Old Greek, and not a later revision/translation.

    Whether, in fact, it was a revision or the earliest attested stage of the LXX translation, we know that the LXX in the first century contained God's name in one form or another.

    aqwsed12345 : If the NT authors originally used the Tetragrammaton (e.g., ΙΑΩ or YHWH), we would expect to see transitional evidence—manuscripts or fragments showing a gradual replacement of the name with κύριος. However, no such transitional manuscripts exist.

    It's interesting that the background to the use of kyrios as a sacred name (KY) is completely unknown to us. There is no transitional evidence - manuscripts or fragments showing a gradual use of KY - but all the copies we have of the NT contain this shortened form. There is no record of any discussion about it, or any objections to it, it just happened...universally. There are lots of theories but there is no concrete evidence of when this was introduced. It must have been in the first century, either by the original writers or by copyists. But there is not a murmur about it (that we know of). This does not require a conspiracy. It would be perfectly natural, especially after the destruction of the temple, for the largely gentile church to distance itself from Judaism. But if the original authors did use some form of God's name, the record of the nomina sacra (specifically KY) shows that any transitional evidence has been lost.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat

    Too bad you can't give a meaningful answer to 99% of my argument.

    My initial argument acknowledges that Shaw demonstrates the wider historical use of ΙΑΩ in onomastica, Jewish texts, and magical papyri. However, this does not automatically equate to widespread liturgical usage, especially within canonical contexts like the LXX. Shaw’s emphasis on diversity and localized practices supports the idea that ΙΑΩ was one of many renderings in circulation, but not necessarily dominant in formal Jewish liturgical or scriptural contexts. Shaw himself writes that the evidence for ΙΑΩ is diverse and scattered, often appearing in contexts like personal names, magical texts, and marginal Jewish traditions, which does not refute the centrality of κύριος in mainstream Jewish liturgical practice.

    Shaw acknowledges that ΙΑΩ reflects an attempt to transliterate the divine name phonetically into Greek. However, the Septuagint translators prioritized theological and functional equivalence over phonetic representation, resulting in κύριος as the respectful substitution. This aligns with the established Jewish practice of using "Adonai" in oral recitation of the Tetragrammaton. Shaw’s work does not negate the overwhelming manuscript evidence showing κύριος as the dominant rendering in extant Septuagint texts, especially those preserved and transmitted by Jewish and early Christian communities.

    Shaw critiques Pietersma's position that κύριος was uniformly original to the Septuagint but does not provide definitive evidence that ΙΑΩ was the primary rendering. Instead, Shaw highlights the diversity of practices and manuscript traditions, suggesting that various forms (including ΙΑΩ, paleo-Hebrew YHWH, and κύριος) coexisted in different regions or communities. My argument that manuscripts containing ΙΑΩ (e.g., 4Q120) likely reflect localized or revisionist traditions rather than the original LXX rendering aligns with Shaw’s acknowledgment of regional diversity.

    Shaw emphasizes that ΙΑΩ had a “widespread” non-mystical use in certain contexts but does not argue that it was widely accepted in formal Jewish worship or canonical scripture readings. The theological reverence for the divine name likely influenced the choice of κύριος as a liturgical substitute, consistent with Philo of Alexandria’s writings and the broader Jewish tradition of avoiding the Tetragrammaton’s pronunciation.

    While Shaw critiques oversimplifications in traditional scholarship, he ultimately concedes that the historical reconstruction of the LXX’s original form is complex and inconclusive. However, the overwhelming dominance of κύριος in early Christian LXX manuscripts and citations in the New Testament suggests its primacy in liturgical and scriptural use.

    My argument is not that ΙΑΩ was unknown or marginal, but that its specific appearance in texts like magical amulets, niche Jewish traditions, or non-canonical settings does not establish it as the dominant rendering in the Septuagint’s liturgical context. Shaw’s work supports the idea of textual diversity but does not provide evidence that overturns the widespread use of κύριος in Jewish and Christian scriptural traditions.

    Your objection may stem from conflating Shaw’s demonstration of ΙΑΩ’s broader historical use with a claim of its dominance in the Septuagint. Shaw’s work, while valuable for understanding diversity, does not contradict my point that κύριος remained the standard rendering in Jewish and Christian liturgical texts.


    @Earnest
    Claim: Emanuel Tov, alongside Stegemann and Skehan, views ΙΑΩ as reflecting the earliest stage of the LXX translation, not a later revision.

    Emanuel Tov does indeed assert that ΙΑΩ may represent an early transliteration of YHWH in some texts, but this does not establish it as the universal or original practice of the LXX translators. Several critical points weaken this claim. The presence of ΙΑΩ in 4Q120 reflects a localized or sectarian variant, not a uniform or universal translational strategy. Anneli Aejmelaeus has argued that early LXX translations, particularly those predating the Kaige recension, displayed considerable diversity in translation strategies. This diversity includes ΙΑΩ as a phonetic transliteration but does not negate κύριος as the more systematic and widespread practice.

    The use of ΙΑΩ appears primarily in fragments with sectarian characteristics, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls (e.g., 4Q120). These communities often sought to preserve the sacredness of the divine name, diverging from mainstream Hellenistic Jewish communities that adhered to oral substitution (AdonaiKyrios). As Tov and others point out, later revisions or corrections inserted ΙΑΩ or the Paleo-Hebrew Tetragrammaton into Greek texts for liturgical or theological reasons.

    Christian LXX manuscripts, which represent the dominant textual tradition, overwhelmingly use κύριος. This strongly suggests that κύριος was the standard rendering in the original translations, even if exceptions like ΙΑΩ existed in sectarian or regional contexts. The predominance of κύριος in manuscripts used by both Jews and Christians further supports its originality as the default rendering of YHWH in Greek.

    Claim: There is no evidence of a transition from YHWH/ΙΑΩ to κύριος in NT manuscripts. The absence of transitional evidence undermines the idea of κύριος replacing the Tetragrammaton.

    The NT manuscripts we possess (dating to the 2nd century CE and later) consistently use κύριος or θεός. This uniformity is not evidence of a sudden replacement but rather reflects the established textual tradition that early Christians inherited from the LXX. If YHWH/ΙΑΩ had been used in NT texts, some transitional evidence should exist, such as manuscripts with mixed usage. However, no such manuscripts have been discovered, undermining the claim that a systematic replacement occurred.

    The introduction of nomina sacra (e.g., KY for κύριος) in early Christian manuscripts aligns with broader scribal practices of reverence but does not imply that κύριος was absent before this development. The absence of transitional evidence for KY (κύριος) mirrors the broader absence of transitional evidence for any competing terms like ΙΑΩ. This further supports the argument that κύριος was the dominant rendering in pre-Christian LXX manuscripts.

    The claim that the NT’s use of κύριος arose to distance Christianity from Judaism is speculative and unsupported by textual or historical evidence. Early Christians explicitly identified Jesus with the κύριος of the LXX (e.g., Philippians 2:11, quoting Isaiah 45:23), suggesting continuity rather than a departure from Jewish tradition. The universal use of κύριος in Christian LXX manuscripts cannot be dismissed as a mere "Christian innovation." Several historical and theological factors support its originality. The choice of κύριος in the LXX aligns with the theological goal of portraying God as the sovereign ruler of all creation (ho Kyrios tēs oikoumenēs). This universalist emphasis is a hallmark of the LXX and is absent from transliterations like ΙΑΩ, which lack such theological nuance. Early Christians inherited the LXX as their authoritative Scripture. Their use of κύριος reflects continuity with Jewish tradition rather than a departure from it. The association of κύριος with both God (YHWH) and Jesus in the NT highlights its centrality in early Christian theology and its roots in the LXX.

    The theological hostility displayed by Jehovah’s Witnesses in accusing early Christianity of deliberately “corrupting Scripture by substituting the Tetragrammaton with κύριος or abbreviating sacred names (nomina sacra) is both historically unfounded and theologically unwarranted. Their willingness to portray Judaism as a more faithful preserver of the Scriptures while suspecting proto-orthodox Christianity of all forms of malice reflects a deeply flawed understanding of textual history and early Christian scribal practices. Far from being a malicious attempt to hide or distort theological truths, the use of nomina sacra was motivated by reverence for sacred names and reflects early Christian scribal practices rooted in Jewish traditions.

    The nomina sacra were abbreviations of divine titles and names in early Christian manuscripts, such as κυριος (Lord), θεος (God), Ιησους (Jesus), and Χριστος (Christ). These abbreviations were marked with a horizontal line above the letters to signify their sacred nature. Far from being a clandestine effort to suppress theological truths or obscure the divine name, the nomina sacra were a deliberate act of reverence.

    As Bruce Metzger highlights, the nomina sacra were not invented to save space but were intended to express respect and veneration for divine names. The unique formatting—using generous spacing and overlines—emphasized their sacred significance. The systematic application of nomina sacra to sacred terms alone (e.g., distinguishing "spirit" from "Spirit") demonstrates that this was an exegetical decision made with theological precision.

    The Jewish oral tradition of substituting “Adonai” for YHWH in Scripture readings influenced the Greek rendering of YHWH as κύριος in the Septuagint. Early Christians, inheriting the Septuagint, naturally retained this substitution while introducing the nomina sacra as a further sign of reverence. The use of sacred abbreviations in Jewish contexts, such as the Paleo-Hebrew Tetragrammaton in Greek manuscripts like P. Fouad 266, indicates that the concept of reverence-driven abbreviation was not uniquely Christian but had roots in Jewish textual practices.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses allege that the use of κύριος and the nomina sacra reflect an intentional effort by early Christians to “obscure” the divine name (YHWH) and introduce heretical theology. This claim is unfounded for several reasons. Jehovah’s Witnesses frequently argue that the substitution of YHWH with κύριος in Christian manuscripts reflects a coordinated effort by later ecclesiastical authorities, possibly the papacy. However the papacy as a powerful institution did not exist in its developed form until the 4th century, and no ecumenical council addressed the issue of divine names in Scripture. The nomina sacra practice predates such developments, as evidenced by their appearance in manuscripts from the 2nd century CE, well before the rise of formal ecclesiastical hierarchies. The use of κύριος in the LXX predates Christianity itself, making any alleged “decision irrelevant.

    It is entirely plausible that the apostles themselves initiated the use of κύριος and the nomina sacra. Early Christian communities sought to honor sacred names, and the consistent appearance of nomina sacra across widespread regions suggests that this practice originated during the apostolic era. If the apostles used κύριος in place of YHWH, as suggested by their extensive quotations from the Septuagint in the New Testament, this further validates the practice as rooted in Christian orthodoxy.

    The nomina sacra were not a suppression of truth but an elevation of sacred terms. Reducing the practice to a conspiratorial effort ignores the cultural and theological motivations behind it. The absence of YHWH or ΙΑΩ in Christian manuscripts is not evidence of suppression but reflects the broader Jewish reluctance to pronounce or write the divine name, a tradition the early Christians respected and continued.

    The universal use of κύριος and its abbreviation (ΚΣ) in Christian manuscripts suggests that no transition was needed because κύριος had already been firmly established in the Greek text of the Septuagint before Christianity adopted it. If there had been a conspiracy to replace YHWH with κύριος, we would expect evidence of resistance or debate in early Christian writings. Instead, the use of κύριος is universally accepted without controversy.

    The nomina sacra safeguarded sacred names from profane use while making their reverence explicit in written texts. Far from obscuring theological truths, they highlighted the centrality of these terms in Christian worship and theology. The consistent use of nomina sacra in Greek, Latin, Coptic, and other manuscript traditions reflects the early Christian commitment to preserving the sacred in a universally recognizable way. The contraction of sacred names mirrors theological themes in Scripture, such as Christ being “the Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 22:13), reflecting the divine completeness of the names abbreviated in the nomina sacra.

    The accusations by Jehovah’s Witnesses that the early Christians maliciously replaced YHWH with κύριος and introduced the nomina sacra to suppress the divine name are historically and theologically baseless. The evidence shows that:

    • The use of κύριος and the nomina sacra was motivated by reverence, not deception.
    • These practices reflect a continuity with Jewish traditions of substituting the divine name and elevate, rather than obscure, theological truths.
    • The uniformity of κύριος in Christian manuscripts and its adoption in New Testament writings underscores its centrality in early Christian worship and belief.

    The argument made by Jehovah’s Witnesses about the alleged "conspiracy" to replace the Tetragrammaton with κύριος in early Christian texts mirrors the Islamic claim of Tahrif al-Nass—the corruption of the text of the Bible. This comparison is worth exploring, as it highlights the weaknesses in such claims and the historical and textual evidence that refutes them. In Islamic thought, particularly among certain Muslim apologists, Tahrif al-Nass refers to the belief that the original text of the Bible (Torah, Psalms, and Gospel) has been corrupted or altered by Jews and Christians to conceal the true message of God. This claim often lacks specific historical or textual evidence and is based on the Qur’an's allegations (e.g., Surah 2:75-79), which accuse the People of the Book of concealing or miswriting portions of scripture.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that the original New Testament and Septuagint manuscripts contained YHWH (or ΙΑΩ) and that these were deliberately replaced with κύριος by proto-orthodox Christians. This, they allege, was done to obscure the divine name and replace it with a generic title. The similarity to Tahrif al-Nass lies in the accusation of deliberate tampering for theological purposes. There is no historical or manuscript evidence supporting the idea of a conspiracy to systematically alter sacred texts. Neither Islamic apologists nor Jehovah’s Witnesses provide specific instances of textual replacement or transitional manuscripts that show mixed usage (e.g., some portions with YHWH and others with κύριος). Both accuse early Christians or Jews of acting with deliberate theological deceit, which contradicts the textual and historical realities of how sacred texts were transmitted.

    Both Jehovah’s Witnesses and Islamic proponents of Tahrif al-Nass face a similar logical problem: if their accusations are true, why is there no transitional evidence or record of controversy or debate over the alleged alterations? If YHWH or ΙΑΩ were systematically replaced with κύριος, why are there no historical records or transitional manuscripts showing partial replacements? Why did early Christians adopt the Septuagint (which they inherited from Jews) without resistance, even though it consistently used κύριος? If Jews or Christians corrupted the Bible, why do we have no historical evidence of such changes in the manuscript tradition? Ironically, the Qur’an itself affirm the reliability of Jewish and Christian scriptures in several verses.

    The accusations by Jehovah’s Witnesses and some Islamic apologists parallel one another in their reliance on unsubstantiated claims of textual corruption and theological tampering. However, both claims are refuted by the overwhelming manuscript evidence, the historical continuity of scribal traditions, and the logical inconsistencies inherent in their arguments.

    • In the case of nomina sacra, the evidence demonstrates that the use of κύριος and its abbreviation as ΚΣ was an act of reverence rooted in Jewish and Christian traditions, not a deliberate erasure of the divine name.
    • Similarly, the Islamic claim of Tahrif al-Nass ignores the textual consistency of the biblical manuscripts and fails to provide historical evidence for systematic corruption.

    The historical record overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that the sacred texts of both the Old and New Testaments were preserved faithfully, and practices like the use of nomina sacra reflect reverence and continuity rather than tampering or conspiracy.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Often you are making assertions rather than making an argument. For example, you wrote:

    The presence of ΙΑΩ or the paleo-Hebrew Tetragrammaton in these manuscripts must be understood as variants or later revisions, not as evidence that they were the original translation practice of the LXX.

    Why “must” this be so? You seem to be unmoved by the manuscript evidence that led senior LXX scholars Skehan and Tov to conclude that Yaho is original and by the fact that even Larry Hurtado (an apologist for Nicene theology) concluded that kyrios didn’t enter the LXX until the second century CE. If despite all the manuscript evidence, onomastica, variants, and expert opinion you still think it “must” be otherwise, I don’t know what use is anything more than I can say.

  • careful
    careful

    You can add well-known OT/LXX scholar Eugene Ulrich of Notre Dame to that list of Skehan and Tov. The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Developmental Composition of the Bible, Supp. VT 169 (Leiden: Brill, 2015) 154.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat
    1. Why "Must" ΙΑΩ Reflect Later Revisions?

    The statement that ΙΑΩ and the paleo-Hebrew Tetragrammaton reflect later revisions rather than the original translation practice is not an unsupported assertion but a conclusion grounded in the following evidence:

    Manuscripts like 4Q120, P. Fouad 266, and others that contain ΙΑΩ or the paleo-Hebrew Tetragrammaton represent specific textual traditions that do not align with the dominant manuscript tradition of the LXX. 4Q120 (Leviticus) reflects a regional transliteration practice, likely aimed at preserving the phonetic sound of YHWH for a specific audience. This does not mean it was the standard rendering across the broader Jewish or Alexandrian communities. P. Fouad 266, with the Tetragrammaton in paleo-Hebrew, shows evidence of a revisionist tendency to reintroduce the Hebrew form into Greek texts, likely for liturgical reasons. Emanuel Tov himself acknowledges this in his work on the Kaige recension, which aimed to align Greek texts more closely with the proto-Masoretic Hebrew.

    Scholars like Anneli Aejmelaeus and Emanuel Tov highlight that the diversity in rendering the Tetragrammaton reflects later textual developments and recensional efforts, particularly among Jewish scribes who sought to preserve the Hebrew form in certain contexts. Tov notes that while ΙΑΩ may appear in some fragmental early manuscripts, its usage is localized and sporadic, not indicative of the broader Alexandrian Jewish tradition that gave us the Septuagint.

    The overwhelming majority of extant Greek manuscripts, including Christian LXX texts, consistently use κύριος. This uniformity strongly suggests that κύριος was the standard rendering from the outset, even if regional or sectarian variants like ΙΑΩ existed. If ΙΑΩ had been the original rendering, we would expect to see it in more manuscripts, including those used and transmitted by early Christians. Instead, the manuscript tradition overwhelmingly attests to the dominance of κύριος.

    So the assertion that ΙΑΩ reflects later revisions is not an unsubstantiated claim but a conclusion drawn from the broader textual and historical evidence. The diversity of renderings (e.g., ΙΑΩ, paleo-Hebrew YHWH) represents localized practices or recensional efforts rather than the original translational standard.

    2. Addressing Skehan, Tov, and Hurtado

    Your claim that Skehan and Tov concluded that ΙΑΩ was original is an oversimplification of their positions.

    While Tov acknowledges that manuscripts like 4Q120 may reflect an early stage of the Septuagint tradition, he does not argue that ΙΑΩ was universally or originally used. Instead, he emphasizes the diversity of practices and the likelihood of later revisions aimed at preserving the sacred name. Tov’s work on the Kaige recension demonstrates that efforts to reintroduce the Tetragrammaton or its transliteration were part of a broader attempt to align Greek texts with the Hebrew Masoretic tradition. This supports the idea that ΙΑΩ and the Tetragrammaton reflect revisionist tendencies, not the original translation.

    Skehan's views on ΙΑΩ are rooted in the recognition of its sporadic and localized usage. He does not dismiss the predominance of κύριος in the majority of Greek manuscripts. Skehan’s arguments must be understood in the context of his broader textual analysis, which acknowledges the coexistence of multiple practices without asserting that ΙΑΩ was universally original.

    The claim that Hurtado concluded κύριος entered the LXX only in the second century CE is inaccurate. Hurtado’s actual position is more nuanced. Hurtado discusses the development of the nomina sacra (κύριος → ΚΣ, θεός → ΘΣ) in early Christian manuscripts as a scribal practice emphasizing reverence for divine names. This practice, while well-established by the second century CE, does not imply that κύριος itself was a late addition to the LXX. It should also not be overlooked that the nomina sacra are already present in the earliest NT MSS, and we don't have a single MS at all that does not not use them. Hurtado’s work supports the idea that κύριος was already in place in the Jewish Septuagint tradition and was later abbreviated as ΚΣ in Christian manuscripts. Hurtado’s analysis of New Testament texts demonstrates that early Christians identified Jesus as κύριος in continuity with the LXX’s use of κύριος for YHWH. This identification would have been impossible if κύριος had not been the standard rendering in the LXX.

    3. The Manuscript Evidence: ΙΑΩ vs. κύριος

    The manuscript evidence overwhelmingly supports the primacy of κύριος as the standard rendering of YHWH in the LXX. Extant LXX manuscripts, including those used and cited by early Christians, consistently use κύριος to render YHWH or ΙΑΩ. This uniformity cannot be dismissed as a later Christian innovation, as it predates the Christian era. Manuscripts containing ΙΑΩ (e.g., 4Q120) are rare and reflect specific textual traditions, not the broader Jewish or Alexandrian practice. The appearance of ΙΑΩ in magical texts and onomastica further highlights its niche usage. Philo, a contemporary of the early Christian era, consistently avoids the Tetragrammaton and never uses ΙΑΩ, despite his extensive use of the LXX. This silence strongly suggests that ΙΑΩ was not a widespread or dominant rendering in the LXX tradition.

    If we accept the claim that κύριος was a second-century CE "addition" to the LXX, several logical problems arise:

    1. Who Made the Decision? There is no evidence of a centralized decision or conspiracy to replace YHWH or ΙΑΩ with κύριος. At the time when the LXX was translated, there was no universal Jewish or Christian authority capable of enforcing such a change.
    2. Why Is There No Transitional Evidence? If κύριος replaced ΙΑΩ, we would expect to find manuscripts showing mixed usage or transitional forms. Instead, the manuscript tradition consistently attests to κύριος as the rendering of YHWH.
    3. Why Did Early Christians Adopt κύριος? Early Christians inherited the LXX as their authoritative Scripture and used κύριος to identify Jesus with YHWH. This continuity suggests that κύριος was already established as the standard rendering in the LXX.
  • Earnest
    Earnest

    @ aqwsed12345 :

    I am inclined to concur with slimboyfat that while you make an appearance of responding to posts, you ultimately ignore them and repeat the assertions which they have addressed.

    For example, I quoted and provided a link to Emanuel Tov agreeing to the conclusion of Skehan and Stegemann that "Iaw reflects the earliest attested stage in the history of the LXX translation".

    And yet you respond to my post that "Tov and others point out, later revisions or corrections inserted ΙΑΩ or the Paleo-Hebrew Tetragrammaton into Greek texts for liturgical or theological reasons".

    You also say "Tov notes that while ΙΑΩ may appear in some fragmental early manuscripts, its usage is localized and sporadic, not indicative of the broader Alexandrian Jewish tradition that gave us the Septuagint".

    Can you provide a reference, preferably a link, which shows that Tov said either of these things regarding the use of ΙΑΩ ?

    In the same post I showed that Tov upholds that "4Q120 reflects the Old Greek, and not a later revision/translation".

    And yet you respond by saying that "the presence of ΙΑΩ in 4Q120 reflects a localized or sectarian variant".

    The same goes for my discussion of the nomina sacra and of Philo, but instead of repeating my reasoning in what would become a rather circular discussion, perhaps you would be kind enough to clarify whether I have misunderstood you on the points above.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I don’t know what kind of game you’re playing here, aqwsed12345. Skehan argued that Yaho was the original form of the divine name in the LXX. Tov agreed with him. Now Eugene Ulrich agrees with them both. You are simply wrong to claim otherwise.

    You write:

    The claim that Hurtado concluded κύριος entered the LXX only in the second century CE is inaccurate.

    It is what Hurtado wrote:

    Our manuscripts of the Septuagint (LXX) routinely have kyrios where the Hebrew has YHWH, but that is a scribal practice that seems to have developed sometime in the second century or so.

    https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2019/05/07/yhwh-texts-and-jesus-a-follow-up/

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Earnest

    Emanuel Tov’s position on 4Q120 and ΙΑΩ requires a nuanced understanding. Tov acknowledges the presence of ΙΑΩ in certain early fragments but explicitly refrains from generalizing this as the original or universal practice of the LXX translators. For example in his "Text-Critical Use of the Septuagint in Biblical Research," Tov argues that the use of ΙΑΩ or the Tetragrammaton in Paleo-Hebrew within Greek manuscripts reflects textual diversity, not uniformity. This diversity suggests localized practices, and Tov states that such forms represent variant traditions, rather than the original text of the LXX. Furthermore, 4Q120 does not prove that ΙΑΩ was the standard rendering of YHWH in the LXX. It is a single fragmentary manuscript reflecting one regional practice, and its use of ΙΑΩ aligns with Egyptian Jewish scribal customs rather than a universal LXX tradition. If you believe otherwise, you need to cite where Tov explicitly equates ΙΑΩ with a universal and original stage of the LXX translation. His consistent emphasis on textual diversity and recensional tendencies undermines the claim that ΙΑΩ was the original form used across all LXX texts. While Tov claims that 4Q120 reflects the "Old Greek" tradition of Leviticus, this does not imply that ΙΑΩ was the universal or exclusive rendering of YHWH. Instead, it demonstrates that the Old Greek tradition allowed for varied treatment of the divine name, with Κύριος being dominant in other Alexandrian texts. By the way, Patrick W. Skehan describes 4Q120 "as a considerable reworking of the original LXX to make it conform both in quantity and in diction to a Hebrew consonantal text nearly indistinguishable [...] from that of MT.

    Philo’s treatment of the divine name is highly relevant because Philo, as a representative of Alexandrian Judaism, consistently uses Κύριος when quoting the LXX, reflecting the dominant practice of Greek-speaking Jews in his time. His avoidance of ΙΑΩ or YHWH in transliteration further undermines the claim that these were standard in the LXX. If ΙΑΩ were the universal rendering, it is inexplicable that Philo, a Hellenistic Jewish scholar, never uses it in his extensive corpus. Philo’s silence on ΙΑΩ supports the conclusion that Κύριος was already the standard and dominant rendering of YHWH in the LXX by the first century CE.

    The development of the nomina sacra does not indicate a conspiracy to obscure YHWH. Instead the nomina sacra, such as ΚΣ for Κύριος and ΘΣ for Theos, emerged as a Christian scribal practice emphasizing reverence for sacred names. This practice aligns with earlier Jewish traditions of avoiding the pronunciation of YHWH and substituting it with Adonai in Hebrew or Κύριος in Greek. The consistent use of the nomina sacra across early Christian manuscripts demonstrates that Κύριος was already established as the rendering for YHWH in both Jewish and Christian texts. There is no evidence of a conspiracy to "replace" YHWH with Κύριος. The uniformity of Κύριος in LXX and NT manuscripts reflects continuity, not alteration. The lack of transitional evidence cuts both ways. If Κύριος were a later addition, we would expect to find manuscripts showing mixed usage of Κύριος and YHWH/ΙΑΩ, and historical records documenting the alleged replacement of YHWH with Κύριος. However, such evidence is entirely absent. The consistent use of Κύριος in extant manuscripts suggests that it was the standard rendering from the outset. Conversely, the isolated presence of ΙΑΩ and the Tetragrammaton in a handful of manuscripts reflects localized or revisionist practices, not the original LXX tradition.


    @slimboyfat

    While Skehan and others argue that ΙΑΩ represents an early transliteration of the divine name, they do not claim that this was the universal or exclusive form in the LXX. Instead, they acknowledge regional diversity in rendering the divine name, with ΙΑΩ being a localized transliteration tied to Egyptian Jewish communities. Skehan’s broader textual studies highlight that Κύριος emerged as the dominant rendering in the Greek-speaking Jewish world due to its alignment with the oral tradition of substituting Adonai for YHWH. Moreover, Eugene Ulrich’s work also supports the idea of textual diversity, emphasizing that the Tetragrammaton (in Hebrew script) and ΙΑΩ reflect specific scribal tendencies rather than the universal form of the LXX. Your claim oversimplifies their positions and ignores their acknowledgment of the dominance of Κύριος in the extant LXX manuscript tradition, particularly as preserved and transmitted by early Christian communities.

    Hurtado’s reference to "a scribal practice that seems to have developed sometime in the second century CE or so" pertains specifically to the "routinely" written form of Κύριος in LXX manuscripts, not to its original use as the rendering of YHWH in the LXX. In the same blog post, Hurtado affirms that "the dominant practice" among Greek-speaking Jews before the second century CE was to substitute Κύριος for YHWH orally when reading the LXX. This directly supports the idea that Κύριος functioned as the standard rendering of YHWH even before the second century CE. Hurtado acknowledges the presence of manuscripts that retain YHWH in Hebrew characters (e.g., Paleo-Hebrew), but he emphasizes that these reflect one particular scribal practice rather than the norm. His statement "Kyrios was used without the definite article to function as if it were a name" shows that the LXX translators and users treated Κύριος as a theological equivalent of YHWH. Thus, your attempt to portray Hurtado as supporting a second-century introduction of Κύριος into the LXX misreads his argument. He affirms that Κύριος predates this period as an established substitution for YHWH.
  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    Thus, your attempt to portray Hurtado as supporting a second-century introduction of Κύριος into the LXX misreads his argument.

    It’s literally what he says: “that is a scribal practice that seems to have developed sometime in the second century or so.”

    If you can’t understand a statement as simple as that don’t expect me to engage with the rest of your verbiage. Why not simply say you think Hurtado is wrong about this, instead of trying to get him to say the opposite of what he wrote?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Earnest, trying to follow what aqwsed12345 is saying is a bit like trampling through shifting sand: you think you’re getting somewhere but in the end there’s nothing there. It reminds me of some of the answers you get from ChatGPT that contain all the right vocabulary and relevant scholarly names, but if you read it carefully the attribution of views is slightly off, and the sentences look like arguments in form, but contain no actual substance. Take this sentence for example:

    Hurtado’s reference to "a scribal practice that seems to have developed sometime in the second century CE or so" pertains specifically to the "routinely" written form of Κύριος in LXX manuscripts, not to its original use as the rendering of YHWH in the LXX.

    At first it looks like it’s making a subtle distinction but on examination it evaporates into nothing. What’s the difference between being “routinely written” and “use as a rendering”? It’s gobbdlegook masquerading as an argument. It’s trying to say Hurtado meant the opposite of what he wrote no matter what.

    The trouble with ChatGPT is that it will do exactly what you ask it to do. If you ask a human to give you a good argument against Paris being the capital of France, a human will tell you that’s a waste of time because Paris is the capital of France. If you ask ChatGPT to give you the best arguments it can “think of” then it will oblige no matter how strained the result. Here’s what ChatGPT gave me:

    If we’re arguing that Paris is not the capital of France, here’s a compelling angle:

    The capital of France is wherever the seat of government is, and historically, that hasn’t always been Paris.

    • Historical Precedent: During World War II, the French government moved to Vichy, making it the de facto capital from 1940 to 1944. By this logic, Paris is not inherently the capital—it’s a matter of political designation.
    • Centralization Criticism: Some argue that Paris's dominance creates inequality between regions. A decentralized France might designate a more geographically central city, such as Lyon, as its capital to better represent the nation as a whole.
    • Symbolic Reallocation: As Strasbourg hosts key European institutions and embodies unity, it could claim a more modern role as France’s "true" capital within the European context.

    Thus, the argument would be: Paris's status as the capital is a matter of tradition and convenience, not an immutable fact. Other cities could be the capital, especially in a modern, decentralized France.

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