That’s a pretty proper breakdown of old-style Christianity, l must say
tommy Robinson --update
by zeb 193 Replies latest social current
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cofty
Abaddon - A significant percentage of young Muslims in the West express regressive social opinions and demonstrate a love of fundamentalist Islamism. They are less integrated than their parents and no longer even see integration as a positive goal.
There is a division within Islam that is deepening. You are emphasising one side of the divide and ignoring the other.
The West do not have the time and patience to wait for an Islamic 'Reformation'. Neither would that be possible since Islam has no central authority in the way 16th century Christendom did.
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humbled
There is a division within Islam that is deepening. You are emphasising one side of the divide and ignoring the other.—cofty
Abandon-This is too important to a point not to be addressed.
You can see from your own post on the darkness of Christianity. There was the 30 Years War that should inform us of the terror of religious divides and their existence. Read Fox’s Book of Martyrs. It will give a person the creeps.
Muslims acknowledge a divide. There is Wahhabism and salafists. The Sunnis and Shias.
I believe standards of behavior—LAW—can shape our communities. But there are many sympathetic to the troubles within Muslim communities who know that education and focused efforts to assistance assimilation must come.
Attention is needed to avoid violence .
(A little off topic are the gangs that are growing in American cities. There are similarities in the multiple ways that must be enacted to deal with this human problem. We have tried to incarcerate our way out of it and it isn’t working.)
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Abaddon
cofty
More Christians in the US support the imposition of religiously-predicated laws on non-Christians than Muslims in Turkey support the imposition of religiously-predicated laws on non-Muslims.
What's their excuse?
Do they feel that their beliefs are marginalised and that they are not accepted?
Possibly.
Are they representative of Christians in the USA?
Nope.
Let's call these Extreme Christians.
Are the majority of Christians in the US people who don't want to force their beliefs on others, and good neighbours working hard to give their children a better life, wanting to live peacefully and law abidingly with their neighbours no matter what their beliefs or ethnicity?
Certainly. Lets call these Moderate Christians.
What happens when people criticise Extreme Christians who want to force their religion on others? At least some of the Moderate Christians feel bound to support their fellow religionists.
Muslims are exactly the same. The ones you are worrying about are not a majority, not even close. But obsessing about them makes them feel even more excluded from the society they live in, and means some of their co-religionists feel bound by loyalty to them.
Rather than focusing on our best allies, the religious moderates, and making them feel more included in society and untainted by association them people whose beliefs they don't share and whose violence they repudiate, people focus on the minority that is doing wrong and make the situation worse.
Let the government agencies focus on anyone who wants to break the law. And give those who want to be isolationist (but still law abiding) the same right we give the most orthodox of Jews or Christian groups to be isolationists.
"The West do not have the time and patience to wait for an Islamic 'Reformation'. Neither would that be possible since Islam has no central authority in the way 16th century Christendom did."
I'm not even talking of the 16th Century or the Reformation. I am talking about secularisation. Totally different thing. Christianity has had no role in secularisation other than as a screeching and protesting retardant. The lack of a centralised Islamic authority therefore has nothing to do with the potential of Muslims to secularise, and in fact is something that could speed it, as well as the fact they are following a trail that has been blazed.
I don't know where you live, but I see Muslims who are as nominal as you could imagine, but would still tick 'Muslim' on a survey. They might attend mosque occasionally or not, just as nominal Christians attend church sometimes. They might answer questions as they think a Muslim should, just as Christians do. But they don't observe dietary restrictions, do have sex before marriage, and drink alcohol.
It's the way that it is going to go. Saudi is finally reforming - our supposed ally who has sponsored their culturally retarded form of Wa'habi Islam being preached in mosques and madrasas around the world - the form of Islam being most every terrorist Islamist group. Iran wavers on the verge of a new cultural revolution. Whether the West wants to wait is barely immaterial as there is nothing to do but wait and foster peace by mindful action. The War on Terror did no one any good, other than the politicians it helped stay in power and the corporations that made billions.
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Abaddon
humbled
"But there are many sympathetic to the troubles within Muslim communities who know that education and focused efforts to assistance assimilation must come.
Attention is needed to avoid violence."
Yes.
If in October 2001, the US had started a massive campaign in conjunction with its allies in which throughout the developing world a water supply was installed in every village and a school and health centre built within walking distance, it would have cost less than the War on Terror.
The money of course would to have been an internal investment as military spending is. Would not have bought as many votes.
But it would make it very hard for those who wanted to spread hate in the developing world to get traction, as they would need to convince people whose mother draws fresh water from a tap with a sign saying 'A gift from the people of the European Union' next to it, and who went to school at a school with a little sign saying 'A gift from the people of America' that the West is their enemy.
And it would make the immigrant populations in the West feel proud, not conflicted when they saw this on TV. How can a young man get angry about water, schools and hospitals? What a comparison to seeing their co-religionists bombed...
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Simon
More Christians in the US support the imposition of religiously-predicated laws on non-Christians than Muslims in Turkey support the imposition of religiously-predicated laws on non-Muslims.
Except it's not true, there are people wanting DEATH for apostasy, homosexuality etc..., not the same thing and you know it.
Muslims riot and kill people just for cartoons. Christians advertise in the programmes of plays that mock them. There's a big difference.
Now, you're done promoting your pro-Islam lies and propaganda on here.
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freddo
I dunno Simon - I just don't see pro-Islam lies and propaganda in Abaddon's posts. I see a well put point of view that is pro-moderate and anti extremist.
Cofty puts a well reasoned point of view too in that Islam is the religion presently used by most extremists to foment their evil.
I believe that British money spent on schools (e.g.) in Pakistan (e.g.) is one of the best ways to spend foreign aid. And with the British background I believe we should spend on foreign aid especially in ex empire countries we have had strong links with. Also building relationships through common sports such as cricket is good too.
I also believe that any religious extremist that kills or threatens to kill should be dealt with severely. Life imprisonment and death penalty included.
Also that anyone (in general terms) who is in a western country illegally should be immediately returned to their country of origin. If they come back then they should be imprisoned for a year before being sent back. Come again and caught then (say) five years.
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Simon
Seriously? Give them money and play cricket matches? That's the solution? It's suicide.
They hack non-believers to death in the street and their politicians pander to the extremists - who are only extreme by our standards, it's mainstream to them. Mainstream muslims in our countries are extreme, intolerant and a threat to society ... but we're meant to believe that these countries are somehow magically filled with kindly folk who want the best for everyone ... grow up and get a clue. Move there if you want to die, let the rest of us chose civilization.
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freddo
Is that all you got from my post Simon?
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Abaddon
Actually, opposition to same sex marriage in the US is 39%, having fallen in recent years from 48%. About 40% only think abortion is acceptable if the mother's life is at risk. If you don't think those are a religiously-predicated opinions I don't know what would qualify.
In contrast, in Turkey 43%, in Pakistan 34%, in Morocco 29% of Muslims want their religious laws forced on non-Muslims.
So, no lies Simon - I was out be a few percent for Turkey as I was quoting off the top of my head.
And, again, you mischaracterise my argument.
I describe the awful things that were acceptable in our society two hundred years ago and say how some Islamic cultures are essentially comparable to then as they have not been subjected to the ameliorating influence of secularism.
I'm not denying that there are problems with certain groups of Muslims or that they do bad things.
But I refuse to reduce Muslims to a monolithic block or fall for the same divisive prejudiced nonsense that is spewed by the Tommy's of today or the Mosley's of the past.
The simplistic calls to action such people make neither describe the issue comprehensively or provide a solution. They do create an 'other' to be vilified and rejected, the populist's answer to everything - find someone who is different you can blame, use it to get followers.
I stand with peaceful law-abiding citizens no matter what their beliefs. I have seen firsthand more violence and hatred directed AT immigrants than I have ever seen directed BY immigrants, and I've lived most of my life in mixed communities.
And I lived in London when Catholic terrorists were bombing the shit out of it through the seventies - had one go off outside my bedroom window close enough to see the flash. But I never confused the Irish people I went to school with or worked with with terrorists and have a similar lack of difficulty confusing Muslims I know with terrorists even when some of that religion commit dreadful cowardly attacks deliberately targeting people that the IRA normally avoided doing on the mainland (different story in NI though).