by raymond frantz 25 Replies latest watchtower bible
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming." (2 Thess. 2:8 ESV)
This is universally recognized by Evangelicals as referring to the Anti-Christ - "the seed of the serpent". It doesn't really work out very well for him when he meets the "seed of the woman".
Kking- but a year of research into the Roman Empire and specifically the years those NT scripts were written, shows to me that both Jesus and Paul were talking about resistance to Rome, and Paul is writing specifically during Nero's time period, the worst persecutor of Christians, and therefore the antichrist Paul was thinking of.
Kerry, your thoughts overall are very positive. However, despite acknowledging the spiritual aspect of the current times we live in (versus believing in a literal final big bang for ex), you seem to completely disregard the spirit entity behind the Roman Republic and Empire.
If Jesus and God didn't cease to exist in the first century, why do you believe their antagonists disappeared with the end of the Roman empire?
Quick questions about preterists here: according to 2 Thess. 2:8
8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.
If Nero was the Antichrist:
1. How was he revealed?
2. How did Jesus do away with him with the spirit of his mouth?
3. What exactly is the spirit of his mouth?
4. And when did the manifestation of his presence take place?
Halcon, good question!
I don't think the Roman Empire has ended, it has morphed and transformed many times, but everything we have, our legal system, our corporate system, the Catholic Church, are very much from the Roman Empire.
I am well aware that I could be completely off track with my thoughts in this regard, but at the moment this is where my journey of study and research led me to.
Kerry,
Indeed if the Roman empire hasn't ended then it should be a clue as to the spirit behind the Antichrist. Raymond asks some good questions above that help determine that this Antichrist is a far more obviously opposing figure to Christ himself than being any one specific unhinged emperor out of countless many.
If the Roman empire never fully vanished and still operates in the manner in which you described then these scriptures we're discussing are still relevant in the present.
Today, Jehovah promises to provide us with spiritual protection. He will never allow Satan to corrupt true worship. (John 17:15)
Interestingly, this claim aligns closely with the Catholic doctrine of the indefectibility of the Church, which asserts that the Church established by Christ will endure until the end of time, safeguarded by God from falling into total error or corruption. However, this raises an important question: if pure worship cannot be corrupted, how do groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses reconcile their claim of being the sole "true Church" with the notion that the original Church supposedly fell into a "Great Apostasy"?
Jehovah's Witnesses assert that after the death of the Apostle John, the first-century Christian Church quickly fell into apostasy, allowing "false Christianity" to dominate the world for approximately 1800 years until their movement restored "true worship" in the late 19th century. But if God permitted such a complete loss of true worship for nearly two millennia, how does this not contradict their own claim that God would never allow Satan to defile pure worship? Such an assertion implies that God either abandoned His Church or failed to protect it, which stands in stark contrast to their claim that He would never permit Satan to overcome it.
The Catholic doctrine of indefectibility, rooted in Christ's promises, provides a coherent and scriptural response to these questions. In Matthew 16:18, Christ states unequivocally, "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." This promise affirms that the Church founded by Christ will never be overcome by the forces of evil. Similarly, in Matthew 28:20, Jesus promises, "And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." These assurances confirm that the Church will remain intact, guided and protected by Christ Himself, until the end of time.
The Jehovah's Witnesses' narrative of a total apostasy undermines these divine promises. If, as they claim, the Church fell into complete corruption immediately after the apostolic age, then Christ’s words would seem empty, His promises unfulfilled, and His mission thwarted. Such a view inadvertently portrays God as incapable of preserving His Church against Satan’s influence, a conclusion that contradicts both Scripture and reason. Moreover, the idea that "false Christians" could erase "true worship" from history for 1800 years directly opposes their own teaching that God would not allow Satan to corrupt pure worship.
This inconsistency becomes even more apparent when we consider the practical implications of their claim. If true worship disappeared for nearly two millennia, how can Jehovah’s Witnesses be certain that their current teachings reflect the original message of Christ and the apostles? Without an unbroken continuity of doctrine and practice, there is no reliable means of verifying their claim to represent "pure worship." In contrast, the Catholic Church, through its unbroken apostolic succession and consistent teaching authority, provides an enduring witness to the truths handed down by Christ and His apostles.
Historically, the claim of a "Great Apostasy" is also deeply flawed. There is no evidence of a sudden and total collapse of the early Church, as Jehovah’s Witnesses suggest. Instead, the historical record demonstrates a continuous development and preservation of Christian doctrine and worship. The writings of the early Church Fathers, such as Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, and Augustine, testify to the unbroken transmission of apostolic teaching and the visible unity of the Church. These early Christians wrote extensively about the sacraments, the role of bishops, and the authority of the Church—elements that Jehovah’s Witnesses dismiss as later corruptions but which are clearly rooted in the practices of the earliest Christian communities.
Furthermore, the concept of a "Great Apostasy" raises theological problems regarding God’s fidelity and justice. If God allowed the Church to fall into total error for centuries, what does this say about His promises and His care for humanity? Such a scenario implies that countless generations were deprived of access to true worship and salvation—a notion that is irreconcilable with the biblical portrayal of God as a loving and faithful shepherd who desires all people to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).
In contrast, the Catholic understanding of indefectibility provides a theologically sound and historically consistent explanation. While the Church has faced internal scandals, external persecutions, and doctrinal challenges, these do not undermine its divine foundation or its role as the guardian of truth. Human sin and weakness have always been present within the Church, as evidenced by the behavior of some of its members throughout history. However, these failings do not invalidate the Church’s teaching authority or its mission. Just as the apostles were fallible men chosen to spread the Gospel, so too the Church is made up of imperfect individuals who rely on God’s grace to fulfill their vocation.
Check my comments here:
The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity
