IQ and JWs (page 4)

asleif_dufansdottir

Mostly I'm frustrated that they refuse to acknowledge the major problems in the org (pedophilia and the UN thing, to mention the latest of a long list).It's their refusal to think that gets me.

amac

I agree to some extent. I don't see pedophilia as a major problem in the JW religion, but I do see the lack of reporting it as the major problem. But maybe a lot of JW's agree, I don't know.

Nevertheless, to exercise your philosophy, maybe it's not that they refuse to think, but just that they think differently. To state your example, couldn't a Christian say that a person in India refuses to think and learn about Christianity?

asleif_dufansdottir

Nevertheless, to exercise your philosophy, maybe it's not that they refuse to think, but just that they think differently. To state your example, couldn't a Christian say that a person in India refuses to think and learn about Christianity?

This issue of our fictitious Indian is not refusing to think and learn about Christianity. The issue with those who were raised in another religious environment, is that their "default" religion, if you will, is something else. The "default" religion (the one the vast majority accepts as 'normal') in the US and most of Europe is Christianity, even if the person does not live what they themselves consider a "Christian" life, they pretty much accept without question that the Bible and Christianity are 'right'. They don't have to be convinced a whole new paradigm to accept that the Bible is what we are supposed to follow. In my example, the person raised in a Hindu culture would have to overcome culture and upbringing to accept Christianity. Think of how the US population acted at the suburban Californian young man who joined the Taliban - they couldn't imagine he would "believe that stuff".

JWs, on the other hand, spend a lot of time finding fault with and focusing on what is wrong with both 'worldly' people and other religions. Yet, when any suggestion is made to judge the WT by the same standard, you can almost hear the mental brakes screech and smoke, and they often react in great anger. Anger out of proportion often points to a guilty conscience...I wonder how many suspect the WT is a corrupt organization that has nothing to do with God, how many know but for one reason or another don't want to leave it, and how many are so afraid it is they refuse to consider it?

Oroborus21

Dear Larc,

I didn't realize you were a salesmen for the tests.

Actually if you review my comments more carefully you will see that they are not directed towards the accuracy, validity or efficiency of IQ tests but were addressing the broader issue of "intelligence" within the Organization in comparison to intelligence in society at large.

Also if you read more carefully I stated not that the results of IQ tests were correlated to job function but that "intelligence has nothing to do with occupation or career success". The reason I through that in the mix was because for JW Cultural reasons and doctrinal reasons a large majority of JWs do not occupy "white collar" jobs, generally perceived by our society to be occupied by persons of higher intelligence. I therefore wanted to point out that though someone may be a carpet layer, window washer or janitor, they may be a highly intelligent person.

For proof of this notion I submit Mr. Einstein who while developing much of his groundbreaking insights in Physics was working as a lowly Patent Clerk and was a school drop out who was told by his teacher that he would "never amount to anything."

Again you incorrectly mistated that I had said that IQ tests do not measure common sense. Actually I stated the question of whether "common sense" as we commonly understand that should be included in the definition of intelligence.

Although I didn't state it, common sense such as to come in out of the rain is something which I do believe is not measurable by IQ tests.

By the way, I can see by your mangling of my comments that perhaps your own IQ score might be deficient in certain areas.

thanks for playing,

Eduardo

amac

JWs, on the other hand, spend a lot of time finding fault with and focusing on what is wrong with both 'worldly' people and other religions. Yet, when any suggestion is made to judge the WT by the same standard, you can almost hear the mental brakes screech and smoke, and they often react in great anger.

I'd have to agree with you there. However, I guess I would have to say that I don't think JW's have an exclusive on this. We are all guilty of this to some degree (well, most, I'm sure there are some true "free thinkers" out there.) For example, look at one of the threads on war in Iraq and you will see members of both side of the argument (me included) who throw on the mental brakes.

I guess all I'm saying is that I understand that people (including JW's) are going to have preconceived notions of what is right and resist statements that say otherwise. Some resist a little more than others. I can't really fault them though, as I've done it in the past and will more than likely do it again (hopefully not as bad though.)

larc

Hi Eduardo,

Yes, I am a salesman for IQ tests. They have done much good in our society, and thank you for thanking me for playing.

To make sure that I don't "mangle" your words, I will take your direct quote from your last post, to wit (a Rutherford favorite term), "intiellignece has nothing to do with occupationial or career success". Did I quote you correctly? You are simply wrong. Please review the Psychological Bulleton, 1998 article by Hunter and Schmidt on this subject.
For you to cite the JW's as an example simply doesn't change anything, since they are such a small % of the total population. Yes, they can be cited as an exception, but that does not change the general rule. Also, I was discussing mental ability, not formal education. There are many intelligent people who did not go to college such as the Wright Brothers, William Anderson - former president of NCR corp, Dave Thomas - founder of Wendy's, and Martin Sheen.

On a minor point, Einstein was not a "school drop out." He had a graduate education in physics.

I consider this all to be a side issue. To me, the main point is why intelligent people come to have ideas we see as foolish? You might want to read Mark Twain's chapter in his book, "Christian Science." It is the best explaination I can find on this question.

blondie

Christian Science by Mark Twain

http://www.classicreader.com/read.php/sid.2/bookid.1286/sec.2/

Mecurious?

By the way, I can see by your mangling of my comments that perhaps your own IQ score might be deficient in certain areas.

Good one!

So, your next point is incorrect where you assert that IQ is not related to occupational acheivement or educatioanal acheivement. That is simply not true

Well let’s consider Dyslexic’s for example. IQ tests are an excellent way to identify dyslectics. Dyslectics usually score between 80 and 90 because their spatial abilities are defective. Dyslectics however can be very high achievers in society. Some notable dyslectics were: Alexander Graham Bell, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Tom Cruise Richard Rogers, Winston Churchill, Cher, Michael Faraday, Leonardo Da Vinci even Albert Einstein! These are all people who are clearly intelligent but for the most part would score low on IQ test (Excepting Albert Einstein, And Leonardo Da Vinci). So I agree with Oroborus21 "intelligence has nothing to do with occupation or career success"

First of all you assert that IQ tests are culturally biased

Depends on who you ask. Maybe the Weschler test are culturally Biased, but just less so.

B'

larc

Mecurious,

Regarding the Wechler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC), most children would score about the same on all subtests. A dyslexic child would, as you asserted, score poorly on subtests that measure spatial ability, but they (if innately intelligent, though dsylexic) would score well on other subtests. This wide degree of "scatter" on the subtests, would be a diagnostic indicator, that further, more specialized tests should be given. Therefore, this particular IQ test is a very important diagnostic tool to get at the root of dsylexia and other learning disabilities.

You may disagree with my statement that mental ability is related to career success. I provided a reference. Look it up. Neither you or the person you favor have offered any research references.

Yes, there are very accomplished people who had specific learing disabilities and over came them, either through intervention or the stint of their own effort. General Patton was dsylexic, and over came it through shear will and the discipline associated with full effort. I am not talking about a specific disability. I am talking about general mental ability when I talk about the correlation between IQ and career success. I have tested people with an IQ of 70, and I have tested people with IQ's in the 130's. Believe me, there is a huge difference. Someone with an IQ in the 130's could have invented the airplane, as did the Wright Brother's, if that person was in the right place at the right time. Someone with an IQ of 70, never could, no matter the circumstances.

larc

One other thought,

If IQ tests are not the best predictor of job success, what is? Under what circumstances should IQ tests or other measures, that you think are more valid, be used to assess job potential and when are they not worthwhile? Are tests, of any sort, culturally or sexually biased? How is the reliability and validity of any assessment measure determined? What is the difference between reliability and validity? What are the methods of determining the reliability and validity of any measure (not just IQ tests)?

IQ and JWs

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