by ISP 172 Replies latest watchtower bible
Straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel?
Anyway, Irenaeus was in agreement with the earlier witnesses on the basics of Jesus Christ, and his mistake in no way overturns the previous much older testimony.
The basics are supposedly that Jesus came, and died for our sins. Do you not feel that it is a little convenient to suddenly claim that the 'basics' of Jesus do NOT include the ransom sacrifice, or whatever you want to call it, when it suits your argument?
Abaddon said: The basics are supposedly that Jesus came, and died for our sins. Do you not feel that it is a little convenient to suddenly claim that the 'basics' of Jesus do NOT include the ransom sacrifice, or whatever you want to call it, when it suits your argument?
Irenaeus taught the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
I accept your apology pete
ISP said: Hooberus, you have not proved anything. The gospels were not written at the time. Mark is oldest gospel but its writing is said to be between 70 CE and early first century. Some date it and Matthew and Luke well into the second century. (Wilson,I 1984) The gospels were of course anonymous works originally and written in Greek and not aramaic.
Clement of Rome (A.D. 95) who quoted from: Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, 1 Corinthians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict p. 44
Ignatius (A.D. 70-110) who quoted from: Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, 1Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Collossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, James, and 1 Peter The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict p. 44 Your dating is out of the mainstream as evidenced by my quote below from a book edited by Metzger, who should know the range of general scholarship. "Scholars are divided on the date of the writing of Luke-Acts, hypothesizing anywhere from after A.D. 70 to about A.D. 90" The Bible Through the Ages 1996 p. 170; Bruce Metzger overall consultant Also we have a copy of verses from John which dates to 100 to 125 A.D. by most scholars. This pushes John to the first century by greek evidence, and since John's is said to be the last gospel written, this also pushes the other 3 into the first century.
Clement of Rome,numerous letters attributed to him were forged in the 4th and 5th centuries. Josephus books were interpolated to include references to Jesus.
If you are going to claim that clement is a a forgery (to which you gave no proof), then you still need to deal with Ignatius who wrote only 15 years later. Clement of Rome (A.D. 95) who quoted from: Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, 1 Corinthians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict p. 44
Ignatius (A.D. 70-110) who quoted from: Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, 1Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Collossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, James, and 1 Peter The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict p. 44 Here is the introduction from the Donaldson volume on Clement which gives much evidence for authenticity. http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-04.htm#P157_12341 As to Joesphus the part of the TF that contains the reference to Pilate is accepted by a great many of Joesphus Scholars and the James reference is accepted by almost all Josephus scholars.
Hooberus,
For works forged in the name of Justin Martyr,late second century and early third century see Cross, FL (1958) 757.6 spurious letters were written in the 4thC and attributed to Ignatius of Antioch.
ISP
Kennesson, you queried the position on pilgrimages etc. Within the first 100 years no one says anything about Jesus place of birth, death resurrection. There are not even any relics of his life, clothing, cup from the last supper etc, nothing from the cross that was used to kill the son of god.
Does that not sound odd to you? You would think there would be masses of artifacts but there is nothing.
ISP
.'"Did you go yourself and examine this, or how do you know?"'
[Socrates 469 - 399 B.C.E.].
."the faithful gain prestige through managing to believe even more ridiculous things than their rivals succeed in believing. "
Free Inquiry,
Title of this issue: "Is Religion a Form of Insanity?", Summer 1993, "Viruses of the Mind", Richard Dawkins, 38."Faith is that quality which enables us to believe what we know to be untrue. " ["The Omnibus Boners"].
William Harwood, Mythology's Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus, Prometheus, 1992, 293
"This is the big one, my friends. This is where we find out which is stronger--the intelligence you were born with, or a lifetime of brainwashing. You can make it. I did. "
William Harwood, Mythology's Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus, Prometheus, 1992, dedication page.
"Such was [is] the power of the world's theocracies that, despite the publication of thousands of scholarly books and articles refuting every part of the Judaeo-Christian bible, to this day the existence of unchallengeable proof that the bible is a work of fiction is unknown to ninety percent of the population of Christian-dominated societies. "
William Harwood, Mythology's Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus, Prometheus, 1992, 16.
"The problem ["that faith and reason might conflict"] was starkly expressed by the Florentine historian Francesco Guicciardini [1483 - 1540]: 'to have faith is simply to believe firmly--almost as a certainty--things that are not reasonable.' 41
Atheism from the Reformation to the Enlightenment,
Michael Hunter and David Wootton, eds., "Atheism in Italy, 1500-1700", Nicholas Davidson, Oxford, 1992, 64"The books of the Bible, Paine concludes, were made to promise far more than was ever intended at first and were made to perpetuate false beliefs for the purpose of controlling human minds and maintaining a tyrannical state. "
Edward H. Davidson and William J. Scheick, Paine, Scripture, and Authority The Age of Reason as Religious and Political Idea, Lehigh U., 1994, 74.
"Christians have never been reluctant to write fiction about Jesus, and we must remember that our four canonical Gospels are only the cream of a large and varied literature. "
Randel Helms, Gospel Fictions, Prometheus, 1988, 11.
"The reader will see by these extracts, that the authenticity of the books of the New Testament was denied, and the books treated as tales, forgeries, and lies, at the time they were voted to be the Word of God. 20 But the interest of the Church, with the assistance of the fagot, bore down the opposition and at last suppressed all investigation. "
Thomas Paine [1737-1809], The Age of Reason, Citadel, 1974 (1948) (1794 Paris), 173.
"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church [...]a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.
--Martin Luther cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Phillips des Grossmüthigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. I. "
Some top quotes!
ISP
1° The seven letters attributed to Ignatius have only the outward and artificial form of true letter writing, and this is particularly clear in the case of the letter of Ignatius to Polycarp. Again and again, where „Ignatius“ could have mentioned a detail concerning his personal relationship with Polycarp, he instead gives instructions in the form of sayings that would be appropriate on any ocassion. Instead of appearing to be a letter jotted down hurriedly during a trip to martyrdom (so VAN LOON, De Kritiek, P. 302), the letter to Polycarp is carefully designed[xxviii]. HILGENFELD showed that the letter to Polycarp is obviously a companion piece to the Pastoral Epistles[xxix]. But if this letter is forged, then the authenticity of the rest of the Ignatian corpus, to which it has strong ties, must be put in question. 2. In anticipation of the outcome of the journey to martyrdom the author, ‘Ignatius’, tends to designate himself as „Theophoros“ or „Christophoros“ It is unlikely that Ignatius used such terminology which at the time would only be used for a martyr after his death. It is more likely that a later person, as was the custom in those times, wrote a number of letters under the name of the legendary martyr bishop and thereby used the title „Theophoros“, which had been given to Ignatius in the aftermath of his martyrdom[xxx]. 3. Ignatius writes of „Magnesia on the Maeander,“ „Tralles in Asia,“ „Philadelphia in Asia,“ „Smyrna in Asia,“ and „Ephesus in Asia“ in the introduction of the letters that are written to the Churches. Does Ignatius need to remind people in these churches that these places are to be found in Asia and not in Europe[xxxi]? 4. If the letters of Ignatius were collected only some time after they had been written, we have to ask in what way this collection was undertaken. The answer is that the letters were conceived from the start as a collection, as individual parts of a single whole. „Each letter presupposes the previous letter in the order given by Eusebius. [Eusebius, HE, Book III, Chapter XXXVI. Ephesians, Magnesians, Trallians, Romans, Philadelphians, Smyrnaeans, Polycarp.] In the epistle to the Magnesians, 1,2 the hope is expressed that the churches show a threefold union: union of the flesh and of the spirit of Jesus Christ, union of faith and of love, and union with Jesus and with the Father. This is a short recapitulation of some of the main points in the letter to the Ephesians (Eph. 7:7, 14:1 f., 19:1 f.). Eph. 20,1 says that the author has plans 'to write a second booklet', which is then the letter to the Magnesians, and in chapter 13 the contents of the letters to the Ephesians and Magnesians are summarized. Trall. 7.1, which states that ‘Anyone who does anything without the bishop or the presbyters or the deacons does not keep a good conscience’, gets new light from the letter to the Magnesians, where in chapter 4, those that appear ‘not to keep a good conscience’ are the ones that have the bishop’s name on their lips, but in everything act apart from him.”[xxxii]
5. The situation that is presupposed in the letters is fictitious, as is apparent when one considers the contradictions. Ignatius the martyr is condemned to death (Eph 12:1 f., Rom. 5:1), but it is still uncertain whether Ignatius is going to die. He is in chains but is still able to visit the churches and write letters to them. The author writes to the Romans from Smyrna, after an overland journey from Antioch: „From Syria even unto Rome I fight with wild beasts, by land and sea…” (Rom. 5,1). Furthermore, „…there is a tradition, which has Ignatius die as a martyr in the winter of 115-116 on the instruction of Trajanus while in Antioch (Johannes Malalas, Chronographie, ed. Dindorf p. 275). This tradition must be more ancient than what is assumed in the letters of Ignatius.“[xxxiii] The journey of Ignatius to Rome seems to be copied from the Pauline travels narrative. 6 Every now and again, the author accidentally slips out of his role as the alleged letter writer, by writing in a way that sets himself apart from Ignatius, the bishop of Syria (Rom. 2.2) Or again, the author puts himself on the side of the church members: „Let us therefore be careful not to resist the bishop.“ (Eph. 5:3; see also 11:1, 15:2, 17:2, Magn 10:1)[xxxiv]. 7. Marcion seems to be one of the false teachers that Ignatius fought against[xxxv]. Some places obviously show foreknowledge of Valentinian Gnosticism[xxxvi]. Not least, the idea of the monarchical episcopate which is emphatically promoted in the letters, presupposes a later time of origin, probably around 175 (so VAN LOON[xxxvii]) or 160 (so VAN DEN BERGH VAN EYSINGA[xxxviii]). The collection probably developed in Rome. 8. There is a strange inconsistency that we find with the author of the Ignatians: on the one it praises the churches, since in these churches everything
clearly is in best order; on the other hand, the author admonishes the churches with regard to false teachers (Eph. 6:2; Trall 8:1; Magn 11:1; in Smyrn 4:1 the author designates his warning as „a measure of precaution”). This fact is best explained on the assumption that the author, though he very well knew they did not exist at the time of the martyr bishop, fought heresies pretending to be Ignatius, and thus, „to avoid anachronism, he had to make Ignatius a prophet”[xxxix].
ISP of the 27 books of the New Testament, how many do you consider to be fradulant?
Of the 2 references to Jesus Christ in Josephus how many do you consider to be fradulant?
Do you consider the reference to Jesus Christ in Tacitus to be fradulant?
Of all the ante-Nicene fathers Volume 1 and 2 how many do you consider to be fradulant?
Volume I. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus
Clement of Rome, Mathetes, Polycarp, Ignatius, Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus
Volume II. Fathers of the Second Century
Hermas, Tatian, Theophilus, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria
Hooberus, the gospel accounts are just fictions.
The references in Josephus are interpolations.
As far as Tacitus is concerned the information he relied on was incorrect.
Virtually all of the early letters were corrupted later by apologetics. its all very I cant honestly except that the first gospel Mark does not mention the Lords Prayer. Neither do any of the epistles, or Jesus miracles, parables, illustrations which are the fodder of the church today. The second century is awash with spurious christian publications. Who says what is spurious because its all very unreliable.
ISP
