Jesus was gay - says academic

by ISP 172 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    ISP Please give the chapter heading of your quote of Justin.

    Talk about out of context! Though the quote appears in Justins Dialogue with Trypho. I believe that the words are Tryphos and not Justin's.

    When I had said this, my beloved friends, those who were with Trypho laughed; but he, smiling, says, "I approve of your other remarks, and admire the eagerness with which you study divine things; but it were better for you still to abide in the philosophy of Plato, or of some other man, cultivating endurance, self-control, and moderation, rather than be deceived by false words, and follow the opinions of men of no reputation. For if you remain in that mode of philosophy, and live blamelessly, a hope of a better destiny were left to you; but when you have forsaken God, and reposed confidence in man, what safety still awaits you? If, then, you are willing to listen to me (for I have already considered you a friend), first be circumcised, then observe what ordinances have been enacted with respect to the Sabbath, and the feasts, and the new moons of God; and, in a word, do all things which have been written in the law: and then perhaps you shall obtain mercy from God. But Christ--if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere--is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing."

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Isp,

    You have misunderstood the quote above, according to Peter Kirby.

    I suggest you read his article entitled "A correction of a misrepresentation of Trypho." According to Kirby, Trypho in this dialogue is not denying the historicity of Jesus, but only that Jesus is the Messiah.

    http://www.didjesusexist.com/trypho.html

  • ISP
    ISP

    The account referred to makes interesting reading as it must have been a common accusation against christianity at the time. But it is not clear whether Trpho was just a created character for Justin Martyr to 'debate' with. The account is dated around 150CE.

    There are some other interesting things in the account.Below is what converted Justin M. It is the philosophy of the religion. (not the death and ressurection and ransom sacrifice of Jesus as it is now)

    But straightway a flame was kindled in my soul; and a love of the prophets, and of those men who are friends of Christ, possessed me; and whilst revolving his words in my mind, I found this philosophy alone to be safe and profitable. Thus, and for this reason, I am a philosopher.

    He says to his Jewish opponent.......

    If, then, you have any concern for yourself, and if you are eagerly looking for salvation, and if you believe in God, you may--since you are not indifferent to the matter -- become acquainted with the Christ of God, and, after being initiated, live a happy life

    Nothing about being born again!!

    ISP

  • rem
    rem

    Funky,

    True, except I had a hard time deciding whether it was hilarious or just sad.

    rem

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Isp,

    Here is Justin's definition of philosophy: "Philosophy, then,' I said, 'is the knowledge of that which really exists, and a clear perception of the truth; and happiness is the reward of such knowledge and wisdom." Then, through the rest of his much lengthy dialogue he puts forth arguments to prove to Trypho and the Jews from Old Testament prophecies and passages that this refers to Jesus Christ.

    Chapter XII--Isaiah Teaches That Sins Are Forgiven Through Christ's Blood

    Chapter XIV--Righteousness Is Not Placed In Jewish Rites, But In The Conversion Of The Heart Given In Baptism By Christ

    Chapter XXVIII--True Righteousness Is Obtained By Christ

    Chapter XCI--Christ Took Upon Himself The Curse Due To Us

    Chapter CV--The Psalm Also Predicts The Crucifixion And The Subject Of The Last Prayers Of Christ On Earth

    Chapter CVI--Christ's Resurrection Is Foretold In The Conclusion Of The Psalm

    CVII--The Same Is Taught From The History of Jonah

    I don't know if you are reading the same Dialogue that I just read, but, yes, it's all there: the death, ransom and resurrection of Christ.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    The following deals with the Trypho Issue, and concludes with some quotes on the historicity of Jesus Christ and the crucifixion.

    http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01.html

    If proponents of the "Jesus-myth" were either qualified historians or had equivalent knowledge, then their counter-consenus position might deserve to be taken more seriously. However, the overwhelming prevalance of tortured explanations, inventive theories, arguments from silence, and outright misrepresentations to get around the evidence that Jesus existed mitigates strongly against offering the Jesus-mythers any scholastic solace. The argument is more than that writers like G. A. Wells are scholars out of their field; it is also that their being out of their field shows like a gaping wound! Drews, for example [Drew.WH, 16-17], attempting to show that there were arguments that Jesus did not exist in early church history, cited these quotes from Justin's Dialogue with Trypho. Trypho, a Jewish person skeptical of Christianity, is speaking with Justin; the relevant passage says (words used by Drews, etc. highlighted):

    When I had said this, my beloved friends, those who were with Trypho laughed; but he, smiling, says, "I approve of your other remarks, and admire the eagerness with which you study divine things; but it were better for you still to abide in the philosophy of Plato, or of some other man, cultivating endurance, self-control, and moderation, rather than be deceived by false words, and follow the opinions of men of no reputation. For if you remain in that mode of philosophy, and live blamelessly, a hope of a better destiny were left to you; but when you have forsaken God, and reposed confidence in man, what safety still awaits you? If, then, you are willing to listen to me (for I have already considered you a friend), first be circumcised, then observe what ordinances have been enacted with respect to the Sabbath, and the feasts, and the new moons of God; and, in a word, do all things which have been written in the law: and then perhaps you shall obtain mercy from God. But Christ--if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere--is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing."

    Drews writes with the implication that these quotes refer to Jesus, and that it was Jesus who was "made" and who was "entirely unknown." But these quotes make it quite clear that Trypho is not referring to the man Jesus. Trypho takes Jesus' historicity for granted throughout the debate with Justin. Consider these passages as samples:

    • xxxii -- "...But this so-called Christ of yours was dishonourable and inglorious, so much so that the last curse contained in the law of God fell on him, for he was crucified."
    • xxvi -"Now show if this man be He of whom these prophecies were made."
    • xxxviii - "For you utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud; then that he became man, was crucified, and ascended up to heaven, and comes again to earth, and ought to be worshipped."
    • xxxxix -- And Trypho said, "Those who affirm him to have been a man, and to have been anointed by election, and then to have become Christ, appear to me to speak more plausibly than you who hold those opinions which you express. For we all expect that Christ will be a man [born] of men, and that Elijah when he comes will anoint him. But if this man appear to be Christ, he must certainly be known as man [born] of men; but from the circumstance that Elijah has not yet come, I infer that this man is not He [the Christ]."

    This is strange verbiage if Trypho believes that the Christians perpetrated a fraud to the point of inventing a man of history! What Trypho means in his earlier statement is that the Messiah - which is to say, the office of the Messiah - has been created by the Christians: He is saying that the "Christ" has not come in Jesus, but that Christians have made Jesus a Christ for themselves; and if the true Messiah was born and lived somewhere, he is entirely unknown! The issue here relates to the Jewish belief that the Christ, when he came, would not proclaim himself (a belief we see evidenced from Jesus' own circumspection in claiming to be Messiah, and in that Bar Kochba, when he arrived, did not claim the title for himself, but allowed others to proclaim it for him). Trypho is accusing the Christians, therefore, of identifying one as Christ who is not Christ -- he is not accusing them of making up a man of history! This argument by Drews, depending as it does on taking Trypho's quotes badly out of their literary and social context, should be an extreme embarrassment to other mythicist advocates; but even Wells and Doherty are making use of it!

    The modern defender of the "Jesus-myth" fares no better. G. A. Wells has also picked up on the "Trypho error" in his latest work. In another place, attempting to explain why Pilate was chosen as the person who authorized the death of his fictional Jesus, Wells says that he was selected because he was "particularly detested by the Jews, and is indeed the only one of the prefects who governed Judea between AD 6 and 41 who attracted sufficient attention to be discussed by the two principal Jewish writers of the first century," Philo and Josephus. [Hoff.JesH, 39-40] In other words, Pilate was chosen because he seemed like he would do something like the Gospels describe! If anything, this is better evidence, rather, that the Gospel writers knew what they were talking about, because they knew the history.

    Quite simply, one must ignore a great deal of evidence, and treat what evidence is left most unfairly, in order to deny that Jesus existed. Greco-Roman historian Michael Grant, who certainly has no theological axe to grind, indicates that there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for a large number of famous pagan personages - yet no one would dare to argue their non-existence. Meier [Meie.MarJ, 23] notes that what we know about Alexander the Great could fit on only a few sheets of paper; yet no one doubts that Alexander existed. Charlesworth has written that "Jesus did exist; and we know more about him than about almost any Palestinian Jew before 70 C.E." [Chars.JesJud, 168-9] Sanders [Sand.HistF, xiv] echoes Grant, saying that "We know a lot about Jesus, vastly more than about John the Baptist, Theudas, Judas the Galilean, or any of the other figures whose names we have from approximately the same date and place." On the Crucifixion, Harvey writes: "It would be no exaggeration to say that this event is better attested, and supported by a more impressive array of evidence, than any other event of comparable importance of which we have knowledge from the ancient world." [Harv.JesC, 11] Dunn [Dunn.EvJ, 29] provides an anecdote similar to the one above regarding Shakespeare. Referring to Wells' thesis, he writes:

    The alternative thesis is that within thirty years there had evolved such a coherent and consistent complex of traditions about a non-existent figure such as we have in the sources of the Gospels is just too implausible. It involves too many complex and speculative hypotheses, in contrast to the much simpler explanation that there was a Jesus who said and did more or less what the first three Gospels attribute to him. The fact of Christianity's beginnings and the character of its earliest tradition is such that we could only deny the existence of Jesus by hypothesizing the existence of some other figure who was a sufficient cause of Chrstianity's beginnings - another figure who on careful reflection would probably come out very like Jesus!

  • ISP
    ISP

    Trypho did except the Jesus was an historical character, but who was Trypho? Could have been JM's imaginary friend! JM records his argument with Trypho, Trypho's arguments and his counter arguments. Just because Trypho accepts Jesus as an historical character does not mean that JM's document proves the issue. There was too much invention in those days of gospels and forgeries.

    ISP

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    ISP your the one that brought up the Trypho issue in the first place. First you incorrectly placed Trypho's words in Justin's mouth. Then when that was rebuffed, you went on to other Trypho issues, which were rebuffed. At least now you have admitted that Trypho (if Trypho existed) did accept that Jesus was a historical person.

    Now lets leave the Trypho issue and move on. What about the testimony of the Apostle Peter. Earlier I quoted his sermons in Acts as well as in 1 Peter, also Mark's Gospel.

  • ISP
    ISP

    Hooberus, JM is the author of the argument and counter argument.

    ISP

  • ISP
    ISP

    But the real question concerns the historical reliability of this information -- i.e., whether we have to do here with a later Christian insertion. When I consider a question such as this, the first question to ask is whether it conceivable or perhaps even probable that later Christians might have modified ancient historical sources; and the answer to this question certainly must be yes! Then, with regard to this particular source, I note that the earliest manuscript we have for the Annales dates from the 11th century, and must therefore have been copied and recopied many times, by generations of Christian scribes (and Christian apologists). So there were certainly opporunities to modify what Tacitus originally wrote.

    Furthermore, it is highly remarkable that no other ancient source associates Christians with the burning of Rome until Sulpicius Serverus (Sacred History, 2.29), in the fifth century (c. 408). The dramatic and fantastic description of the tortures suffered by the scapegoats resembles the executions portrayed in legendary Acts of Christian Martyrs. And John Meir (who regards this text as early evidence for pagan recognition of a historical Jesus) tellingly observes (without perceiving its significance): "There is a great historical irony in this text of Tacitus; it is the only time in ancient pagan literature that Pontius Pilate is mentioned by name -- as a way of specifying who Christ is. Pilate's fate in the Christian creeds is already foreshadowed in a pagan historian," -- which could easily indicate Christian apologetic intervention. For all these reasons, therefore, one must at least conclude that this text is too problematical to serve as historical evidence for anything. I myself, however, regard it as probable that we have to do here with a later Christian elaboration.

    Darrell J. Doughty
    Professor of New Testament
    Drew University, Madison, NJ, 07940

    Quote on the mention of Nero's persecution of Christians.

    ISP

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