DJ,
Thank you for your kind words. & maybe I should tone it down. However, IMHO, Soj is'nt here to learn, or help bring people back to the "trooth". He, or she is here to get their jollies from pissing people off w/ extremely insensitive comments & not just on this thread. No benefit of the doubt, just arrogant "YOU BAD APPOSTATE" comments. No compassion. just an agenda. That being said, I have actually written nice things to Soj. However, when you call my bro, or anyone else for that matter who is suing the org. a "fat, greedy, pig" w/out knowing any of the facts, I WILL come out w/ both barrels blazing. IMO, allowing thiose kind of comments to go unanswered is tantamount to the same complacency that allows children to be molested all the time.
Watchtower to pay for Silentlambs trip
by Dogpatch 182 Replies latest jw friends
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avishai
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jst2laws
SoJ,
Actually I know many elders that are very good investigators. Yes, even better than some cops I've dealt with. I've also known some elders that are horrible as investigators. Elders are instructed to use experienced brothers in judicial committees. The victim does have the right for the authorities to investigate the matter, I agree with you there.
I have to say I admire you, SoJ, for your defense of your brothers and your faith. I hope you stay here and keep reasoning on these matters as it is good for you and I enjoy it too. However, if you could for a moment switch places with one of the thousands who claim they were not aided by the brothers when they were suffering from molestation and ask yourself: Would I feel differently about my terrible experience if I were to hear that some brother knows of a few "elders that are very good investigator"? There needs to be thousands of good investigators and NO VERY BAD investigators.
I was a good investigator. In my last two years as an elder I confronted three sisters who had several symptoms of being adult survivors of child molestation. Several elders were angry with me when I called the society, as per WT instructions. I must admit that the brothers in the legal department were concerned and gave us aggressive instruction in handling the allegations, but it went nowhere because of the two witness rule. None were reported to the authorities, nor did the legal department inform me that Florida is a reporting state.
So being a good investigator did not help these three victims. Eventually my wife and I spoke up publicly about this problem and three months ago we were disfellowshipped for apostasy. I'm sorry to dump this on you SoJ because if you are sincere, this is the way honest, sincere, loving brothers end up.
Jst2laws
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144thousand_and_one
Hawkaw,
You said, "What Bill did is just the same as taking notes of your conversation. Its called a recollection of the facts and is far from being dishonest and in fact can be used in a court of law. It is quite legal for one party to tape or record another party without their knowledge. What is illegal unless a warrant is obtained is for a third party like the government to listen in on a conversation between two parties."
Nothing could be further from the truth. In California, taping a telephone conversation without the consent of the other party is a criminal offense. Many other states have laws similar to California in this regard. Even if it isn't illegal, I disagree with your position about it not being dishonest. If someone did that to me, I would use every legal means at my disposal to punish them for it. They would definitely regret it.
You added, "As for calling it a pedophile paradise - I think most of the 17 victims who were brutilized by Fitzswater and the 42 who were abused by that sicko in Oregon would tend to agree with Bill's comment."
That's not surprising, but I think it's safe to say these individuals are biased in their opinion as they have suffered great harm and are unlikely to be able to look at this issue in an objective manner. It's like asking the families of murder victims to decide the fate of the defendant. Probably 99.9% will choose death.
Finally, you said, "As for your comments on compensation or lack of audited booking practices comments I want to add this - Even though I am not a member of Silentlambs I am not sure if you should have stated what you did until you asked for a copy of their financial statements. . . . Hinting at accusations like that without backing them up is kinda ... well ... not the greatest thing to do .... especially when I watched the man spend 10 grand of his own money at one time on this issue. "
Let's go back to my statement you responded to. gcc2k said, "I'm sure that Bill's mission (or mission in life?) is genuine and heartfelt, and perhaps it is the uphill battle that has him resorting to certain tactics that many do not agree with." I responded, "I'm not convinced of that. I wonder what sort of compensation, if any, Mr. Bowen is receiving in connection with the silent lambs. Do they issue audited financial statements?" I didn't accuse Mr. Bowen of anything in this regard, but apparently you have in your own mind. The questions I raised are valid, notwithstanding your misguided, unsuccessful effort to falsely characterize them otherwise. The fact that most of us here are no longer Jehovah's Witnesses does not mean we shouldn't be skeptical of others who seem to be aligned with our views. A great amount of skepticism was directed at an attorney on this board who offered her services to victims of the cases at issue in this thread. Rather than being offended, the attorney involved took action to allay the concerns. This is an open forum and I hope these questions are answered in a similar manner.
I really could care less what you think is a "great" thing to do. I call 'em as I see 'em.
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Gerard
I've got an answer to my question. The case is an apeal to Paul Berry's conviction:
...the defendant, Paul Berry, was found guilty of seventeen counts of aggravated felonious sexual assault and four counts of misdemeanor sexual assault. See RSA 632-A:2, :4 (1996). On appeal, he alleges the trial court erred in: (1) admitting evidence of prior bad acts; and (2) barring the testimony of two defense witnesses.
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DJ
DJ:
I am in agreement with your last post.---SOJ
I think you might be interested in what exactly it was that SOJ agrees with me about. So scroll back and find the post that he agreed to! That way maybe you will see that he is not your average jw but a person who is trying to think but still in bondage by the watchtower. Of course he will say rude things...didn't you think that everyone was evil except JW's when you were one? We ought to be able to relate to SOJ's mindset because our past. Two wrongs do not make a right. I know that there are victims here but do you really expect a jw to agree with you when YOU know what they are taught about others//?? Yes, I am upset that I was getting somewhere with SOJ and emotional rude outbursts made him leave. I have been through my share of trauma's in my life b/c of the wt that you are not aware of BUT get a grip because angry outbursts with name calling isn't going to help matters at all. Trust me, been there and d done that and learned. We all have anger and emotions but try to restrain yourself because it only causes more harm than good in this situation. You are free to be emotional but right now it isn't helpful. Wouldn't you like to see SOJ free from the wt...how do you know that he wouldn't someday be helpful to your cases??? because he is obviously not a rank and file member. He has dealt with child abuse incidents and if you read what he says you may see that. I personally just want to see him free....period. Just as I want all the jw's to be free of the wt. love, dj
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DJ
sorry, I double posted
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DJ
THIS IS THE POST THAT SOJ AGREES WITH :
SOJ,
I understand that there will always be criminals and victims until Jesus returns but the point that I was trying to make was for the prevention of new victims. When the elders forgive a confessed and seemingly repentant child molester without submitting him to the authorities for appropriate actions that are determined by the criminal legal system to be appropriate for the crime.....they are in essence letting a molester free to molest again, maybe a different child and the cycle continues. There is a price to be paid for crimes which is for the good of not only the community but also for the chastening of the criminal and monitoring of his behavior in jail for his own good.The court system has considerations for remorseful criminals. This is God's legal arrangement in Romans 13. The molester has broken the laws of the land. The law to report or not is not the issue. The wt should see that obeying Romans 13 is more important than the lack of a law to report. The other responsibilty that the elders have to the community and their own flock is not to make judgements about who is telling the truth and who is not when it comes to a criminal act. They are not the police that God has arranged for the Christian to be obediant to. They are not the jury or the judge. Here is where they are out of bounds. Would an accused murderer of a child within the congregation be handled by the elders too? The answer is yes if one follows the two witness rule for crimes. It is clear that the two witness rule does not apply to crime but to other sin. Child molestation is a crime. The elders should be taught by the society to report all matters of possible crime to the proper governing authorities who are appointed by God. The elders should not have to carry that burden. It is wrong. The elders are given the authority by God within the flock to handle spiritual matters/sin not crimes.
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hillary_step
DJ,
Given your obvious concern for Sword and his/her welfare, why not take this to him/her privately? I have found him/her quite amenable to private discussions and this way no interference from exasperated posters will cloud the issue.
HS
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hawkaw
There are many more accounts as well as BOE letters that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the WTS by its policies tried to hide these cases. The victims opinions are not biased. They are factual. They were told to be quite or face dfing. The pedophiles denied the accusations and nothing was done because the elder hide behind clerical privilege as instructed in BOE letters from the WTS and the two witness rule. These are facts and they are out there for all to see - Erica, Heidi, Berry girls etc.
And quite frankly you by using a questionary style hinted that Bill may not be on the up and up. All I ask is that if those truly are your questions why didn't you contact Silentlambs and ask for a copy of the statements rather than making those questions public the way you did. If you don't get them then come back and tell the board. Last time I checked its a toll free call and seeing Bill doesn't post here unlike the certain Counsel you refer too then maybe you should contact him.
And yes I believe you are right when it comes to California law (Cal. Penal Code ยงยง 631, 632). But Kentucky law where the call was made from and Federal USA law and 38 states have a one party rule and thus, what Bill did was quite okay. California law has a two party rule as long as a person would reasonably expect the call to be confined to the parties present. I think if you applied Calf. law to the Bowen/WTS service department call you would note that Bill as the PO was phoning on behalf of the elders in the congregation to see what would have to be done in the case. The WTS person was expecting Bill to pass the message on to the other elders and thus, even applying California law, Bill was still okay since the response was to be relayed ot others - http://www.rcfp.org/taping/
And I guess you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on your comment about the taped conversation.
hawk
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DJ
HS
I suppose that I could do that but wouldn't interest others to see just how SOJ can agree with my post above and then still be able to disgree with others who are saying the same thing? I feel that it would be an interesting discusion for all who have been affected by the molestation policy. How can SOJ agree and still somehow disagree? Wouldn't that give us a clue as to the thought process of the jw elders who know in their hearts that it's wrong but continue to blindly obey the wt or possibly even reveal to us just what in the heck the watchtower is really teaching them. Was soj engaging in theocratic lying warfare or what?