Watchtower to pay for Silentlambs trip

by Dogpatch 182 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  amac

  There are many more accounts as well as BOE letters that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the WTS by its policies tried to hide these cases.

  Then it shouldn't be a problem winning this case I would guess. I hope the Berry girls are able to use the money wisely.

  I'm not sure I agree with sueing the society over this. The responsibility for this has to end somewhere. The mother decided to listen to the elders about her daughters. Is she going to be sued by the girls?

  I could sue the society for telling me to not go to college back in the 80's. I could sue for lost wages and opportunities (not sure that I'd win, but that's not the point.) But I don't view it as their fault (although I do resent them), I'm the one who listened to them, I'm the one who didn't go.

  I guess I'm not sure why the mother, who has greater responsibility for her children than the elders do, is absolved from responsibility, but the elders and the WT aren't.
• 

  hawkaw

  amac

  I'm not sure I agree with sueing the society over this.

  Last time I checked its NOT your call seeing you have not been harmed. Its up to the victim. And it is a very serious decision to make seeing you will have to relive everything.

  As for the mother, check out stockholm syndrome and the fear tactics used by JWs such as shunning et. al. and I think you will understand. But the cool thing about court is that the mother will be put under cross examination. So if she is not suffering Stockholm syndrome or purposely hid the facts, then it will all come out.

  But remember the Court has already ruled that whether the mother did or did not report, the elders also have a common law duty to report. And if they don't report, they can be liable just like anyone else for not reporting any problem that happened after they become aware of the occurrence. And seeing the elders act as the agents for the corporations, the Corporations are also liable as well.

  hawk
• 

  DJ

  Amac,
  I understand your thinking but we have to remember that the mom was under the mind influence of fear and in a cult. The same goes for the elders. I don't know what ti think about the wt...That's why, I feel that the so-caled ecclesiastical (SP) privelge should never be used to cover up a crime! That is where the governments need to step up to the plate and make it a LAW to report all suspected criminal activity to the police. I am not saying that the elders and parents are not accountable but the law needs to be there for not only the Catholic priests and the jw's but for all religions who claim to obey the laws of the land. Why isn't it?
• 

  amac

  Last time I checked its NOT your call seeing you have not been harmed. Its up to the victim.

  Obviously, henceforth my previous comment that I hope they use the money wisely, if it is an open and close case as you have suggested.

  But remember the Court has already ruled that whether the mother did or did not report, the elders also have a common law duty to report. And if they don't report, they can be liable just like anyone else for not reporting any problem that happened after they become aware of the occurrence.

  Agreed. But are they more liable than the mother? Again the personal responsibilty stops somewhere. She can blame the elders for the decisions she made, based on the Stockholm syndrome. An extension of the argument would be that the elders also suffered the Stockholm syndrome from the GB at the WT, so it was the GB's fault. The GB could say they suffered the Stockhom syndrome from God because they didn't want to fall out of his favor and lose everlasting life. Where does the responsibility end?

  Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the mother for this. I'm only stating my disagreement with going after the WT, but not their mother who I would think is equally responsible.

  But as you said it is not my decision. Those girls seem to have been through a lot and I can only hope they find some form of healing.
• 

  hillary_step

  Amac,

  I can see where you are coming from and this will obviously form part of the WTS case in defense. However we need to remember that the mother did *all* that she could responsibly do in the circumstances given her belief system and the fact that the elders seem to have repeatedly blamed her for this problem and sent her and the girls back into their dark and terrible maelstrom.

  The elders, as I understand it, were in a jurisdiction at the time that required them by law to report third party knowledge of such heinous crimes to the Police and did not do so, resulting in further injury to these young girls. They did not do all they could in the circumstances, in fact quite the opposite. They must pay for this tragedy, as any ethical person would be pleased to do.

  Somebody has to take the responsibility for what happened here. The courts sentenced the animal who defiled these young girls, but not the mother, and no charges are pending against the mother. This speaks volumes. If these young women win this case and the WTS is forced to make financial reparation, an admission of guilt by implication, it will sound a needed warning to all high-control religions that forces them to face the fact they do not own their adherents as ‘Christ’s belongings’. We are all free moral agents, answerable to the dictates of our own conscience, groups like the WTS trample on these rights at their own peril.

  If the girls choose to spend any cash that might come their way on candy and fast cars, that is not for us to moralize about and has little to do with the issue.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  amac

  The elders, as I understand it, were in a jurisdiction at the time that required them by law to report third party knowledge of such heinous crimes to the Police and did not do so, resulting in further injury to these young girls. They must pay for this tragedy, as any ethical person would be pleased to do.

  Yes, but don't those same laws bind the mother to reporting the incident? If the elders are made to pay, should she not have to? Were they privy to some knowledge that freed them from the same belief system as the mother?

  The courts sentenced the animal who defiled these young girls, but not the mother, and no charges are pending against the mother. This speaks volumes.

  If I understand this case correctly, there are no criminal charges pending against the elders either. I was under the impression this is a civil case being pressed by the Berry girls.

  If these young women win this case and the WTS is forced to make financial reparation, an admission of guilt by implication it will sound a warning note to all high-control religions that they do not own their adherents as ‘Christ’s belongings’, but are free moral agents and that people trample on these rights at their own peril.

  This would be a definite plus to a ruling in the girls favor.

  If the girls choose to spend any cash that might come their way on candy and fast cars, that is not for us to moralize about and has little to do with the issue.

  Agreed. I didn't mean to make it seem as though that is part of this issue.
• 

  integ

  I have to say that I agree with the prior assertion that it was not advantageous to "the cause" to have the witness religion characterized as a "Pedophile Paradise" on the dateline show. My families response to that was "awww come on, who do you know that's been molested from the hall?" "Pedophile Paradise? Gimme a break". That's what I'm talking about. The average witness where I'm from has absolutely NO recollection of ANY stories of abuse. The people in Oregon and other places where this has taken place can SEE IT. I'm glad the Watchtower is being exposed in those places, but to give sensationalistic catch phrases to this serious problem actually detracts from what I hope is the "goal" here, with most of us, and that is to see the Watchtower at the very least change their policies, and at the most, be completely disbanded. Although the NATIONAL attention to these issues is great, if the average witness can't see it for themselves, they will continue to stubbornly deny it is a serious problem, or even "laugh it off" as a lie perpertrated by the evil media controlled by Satan, who uses "evil apostates" to propel His agenda. I'm not saying this won't have an effect, or has'nt had an effect on the general rank and file in my area. But throwing out terms like "pedophile paradise" to describe what goes on at the average Kingdom Hall, just rings hollow to most witnesses, and lacks credibility to the great majority that can't see that for themselves. We have to treat the witnesses with fragile hands, because they ARE fragile individuals, and can be very defensive about what they have believed to be the truth all their lives. Their pride also comes into play. So if we are to effect ACTUAL CHANGE, and that is the general goal,we may need to adjust our "theocratic war strategy" a little bit.

  Thanks,

  Integ.
• 

  hillary_step

  Yes, but don't those same laws bind the mother to reporting the incident? If the elders are made to pay, should she not have to? Were they privy to some knowledge that freed them from the same belief system as the mother?

  Yes, I believe they were privy to some knowledge that freed them from the same belief system as the mother. They were in a position of authority over the mother and instructed her to return home with her husband and her poor little girls. She obeyed, because they were in a position of authority over her and could subsequently do her harm. With authority comes greater responsibility. These elders did not act responsibly, even to the point of ignoring at times, the WTS own instructions. This point will I am sure, also be part of WTS defense.

  If I understand this case correctly, there are no criminal charges pending against the elders either. I was under the impression this is a civil case being pressed by the Berry girls.

  That is correct. My point though, is that neither side of this issue, including Paul Berry has sought to level charges against the mother for 'irresponsibility' either criminally or civily. The criminal side of the issue has already been dealt with and the girls and mother vindicated in the 56 year sentence against this man. The civil case deals with who, if anybody, bears the responsibility for allowing this tragedy to happen. The mother is not cited, the elders and the WTS are.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  amac

  Yes, I believe they were privy to some knowledge that freed them from the same belief system as the mother. They were in a position of authority over the mother and instructed her to return home with her husband and her poor little girls. She obeyed, because they were in a position of authority over her and could subsequently do her harm.

  With all due respect, I do not see how their position of authority gave them any knowledge that FREED them from the same belief system. The mother obviously believed that she needed to listen to the elders, the elder no doubt believed that they needed to listen to the GB, the GB no doubt feel they need to listen to God, and who knows what God feels about it. They are all part of the same belief system, and the originators of this system, unless it can be proven otherwise, believe their system comes from God. So it should be God that is sued.

  even to the point of ignoring at times, the WTS own instructions.

  This I wasn't aware of. If it can be proven that they ignored WT instructions and tried to protect Berry because he was a friend or something like that, than it is a different matter.

  But if the GB told them not to report because they didn't think God wanted them to, and then the elders told the mother not to report because they think God wants them to listen to the GB, and then the mother didn't report because she thought God wants her to listen to the elders, than I would say they are all equally reponsible for putting their belief system ahead of the physical well being of the girls.

  The civil case deals with who, if anybody, bears the responsibility for allowing this tragedy to happen. The mother is not cited, the elders and the WTS are.

  And that is what I have issue with.
• 

  hillary_step

  Amac,

  With all due respect, I do not see how their position of authority gave them any knowledge that FREED them from the same belief system.

  Yes, you are correct here. What I meant was that given the considerable authority that the elders have over their adherents, the elders are more culpable in these particular circumstances than the mother who was conditioned to obey them and look to them for direction in the matter. The degree of this culpability is being tested in the court in the US and in Canada with the Vicki Boer trial. In your suggestion that inevitably God would have to be sued, you seem to pre-suppose that God has any hand in the workings of the WTS. This has not been proved.

  The mother is able to claim that she had no choice in the matter and that she was obeying her elders instructions, the elders presumably would try to make a similar claim, that is that they were just obeying the tenets of their faith. Even if this were true, they bear by far the greater responsibility in the matter, due to the position of authority they accepted in this case. Surely you can see that?

  Best - HS

  .