Watchtower to pay for Silentlambs trip

by Dogpatch 182 Replies latest jw friends

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    DJ,

    Sword made some valid points at the start of this thread namely :

    Let me get this straight. The Watchtower was sued and Bill Bowen is criticizing them for using their resources to defend themselves? Is he stupid or something? The Watchtower IS NOT choosing to use the money, they're being FORCED to use the money to defend themselves in court.

    He/she is in my opinion, correct in this view. The WTS may have no choice but to eat with the Devil in order to present a viable defense, however ill-concieved its basis. It seems that they feel that they need to do this in order to present a case that does not compromise their own chances of success. Like war, the Court of Law can be, and often is, a dirty business.

    Where people have become inflamed at Sword and responded accordingly, is over his/her repeated allusion to the victims as "victims" ( notice inverted commas ) insinuating that he / she does not truly view them as such and "greedy", in that their only motive is to gain cash from the WTS. This is an outrageous statement.

    First of all, Berry has been found guilty for the repeated rape and terrorizing of his children under his care. These victims are not 'alleged victims', but real victims.

    Secondly, does Sword feel equally outraged at the 'alleged greedy victims" that have sued the WTS arch enemy the Roman Catholic Church, or has he/she, like other JW's conveniently used this issue as part of the means it has identified the Catholic Church as not having God's Spirit?

    HS

  • integ
    integ

    PETTYGRUDGER,

    You are right on target with those posts....AWESOME in it's simplicity. You stated that perfectly.

    Integ.

  • Gerard
    Gerard

    SOJ: Theocratic laws are for Gods. Humans are no angels so we are subject to the judiciary system. Paul Berry was found guilty in a court of law so how can you (and the WT) contest this and sleep at night?

  • kls
    kls

    I can understand more a priest molesting because they are sworn to no sex.A jw cult member is not, and still is molesting children.Most jws only found out about these rapes from ,satan television ,or satan news papers.There is no EXCUSE for this sick org. hiding these perverts.Maybe check your jehovah connection to the annointed ,he must have for got to tell them what the perv's were up to.If everyone on this board would stop answering soj as it defense these pigs and it's cult ,it may just curl up and die.

  • DJ
    DJ

    Hillary,

    I have been with the thread since it began and I don't need you to explain the disagreement to me. I still hold the vies that telling SOJ to get out of the gene pool, etc....is rude. TH never has repeatedly provoked and insulted people as well as Farkel and others without ever being held accountable as others are when they have their threads locked. There is a double standard for certain people here and I agree with Prisca that it is wrong. Imo. people ough to be treated as humans and there are other ways to make one's point without acting like children.

  • 144thousand_and_one
    144thousand_and_one

    "144k, your original point is being lost in the shuffle. This thread is reminiscent of the one I started about the CBS/Silentlambs program where I declared that Bill Bowen had uttered what was at best a half truth (that anything an elder says is to be taken as the direct word of God)." - - gcc2k gcc2k, I too was disappointed with at least some of what was presented in that show. Sensationalism can backfire and hurt the cause one is trying to promote. Referring to the JW organization as a "pedophile paradise" seemed a little extreme to me, given the fact that I never heard of any molestation cases in our area. Certainly, there are molestors in the org, and it is probably true that the Watchtower's policies have facilitated their ability to escape prosecution and/or repeat their crimes with other children. I find it hard to believe that the problem is so pervasive as to warrant the characterization as a "pedophile paradise." Similarly, I found the phone call to the WT legal department to be rather unsavory. The problem showcased by the 20/20 show is certainly a serious problem and one deserving of media attention and very aggressive scrutiny, but I believe that open dishonesty (not informing the person on the line of the true nature of the call) does not reflect well upon the individual trying to make his/her point. Overall, I did think the program was a good development and brought attention to a problem that the general public is for the most part entirely ignorant of.

    "I'm sure that Bill's mission (or mission in life?) is genuine and heartfelt, and perhaps it is the uphill battle that has him resorting to certain tactics that many do not agree with." I'm not convinced of that. I wonder what sort of compensation, if any, Mr. Bowen is receiving in connection with the silent lambs. Do they issue audited financial statements? Being a JW taught me to question everything; don't be too quick to buy into someone or something without asking the appropriate questions, notwithstanding the appearance of an individual/entity of being aligned with a cause yo believe in. I guess the JW experience made me a very suspicious guy.

    "On this matter, my thoughts are clear. If there is a sin committed, judge the sin according to congregation guidelines. However, if there is a crime committed, even if only in allegation, then the authorities should be involved." I agree with this statement. The elders ought to immediately pass allegations regarding child abuse/molestation to law enforcement. Crimes of this nature are so heinous that they deserve a PROFESSIONAL response, rather than the bumbling of lay persons. This sort of crime leaves scars that last a lifetime. Allowing elders to decide whether law enforcement will be involved in investigating cases of this nature trivializes the seriousness of these crimes and demonstrates an absolute disregard for the welfare of children. How many children have to grow up to hate the Watchtower before they learn to exhibit at least a modicum of compassion towards the children who are forced to live this socially deviant lifestyle?

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step
    Hillary

    Yes, my dear....lol

    I have been with the thread since it began and I don't need you to explain the disagreement to me.

    Obviously DJ, you do need to have the issue explained as you do not seem to understand that Sword insinuated that the raped children mentioned on this thread, and who may be reading the thread, were greedy liars. This is a disgraceful comment that Sword deserved to be called out on ( this is the part that you do not understand ). Rather than apologize, Sword perpetuated the disgrace throughout the thread, provoking persons into an inflammatory situation. Sword is to blame for his/her own treatment. ( this is another part that you do not understand ). This is not the best venue for giving people the benefit of the doubt!

    I still hold the vies that telling SOJ to get out of the gene pool, etc....is rude.

    Good for you! I certainly am not defending the rude comments made to Sword, however he must bear the greater part of the responsibility for provoking them and then compounding the situation. This is not a Kingdom Hall, where behavior is adjusted to suit a particular audience. This is, if you had not forgotten, an on-line discussion Board where persons are judged on words, not on deeds. It is a very difficult scenario to come to terms with DJ, but it is the reality of on-line relationships. I have had people misunderstand me, insult me, be rude to me and lie about me on this Board and it hurt but I did not whine. In fact I chose to stay here where I know this may happen to me daily, and so have you, and so has Sword. Simon does his best to grapple with this issue but fights a daily battle against human nature .

    TH never has repeatedly provoked and insulted people as well as Farkel and others without ever being held accountable as others are when they have their threads locked.

    Totally untrue. TH has been deactivated more than once as has Farkel. Threads have been locked and language modified by the moderators. You are quite wrong here.

    There is a double standard for certain people here and I agree with Prisca that it is wrong. Imo. people ough to be treated as humans and there are other ways to make one's point without acting like children.

    They ought to be able to act like adults DJ, but the reality is that until the New System comes, they never will…lol The best thing you can do is teach by example.

    Best regards - HS PS - Please fogive the multiple formatting problems - I am having trouble sizing the font on certain paragraphs.

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    Hmm ...

    The problem showcased by the 20/20 show is certainly a serious problem and one deserving of media attention and very aggressive scrutiny, but I believe that open dishonesty (not informing the person on the line of the true nature of the call) does not reflect well upon the individual trying to make his/her point.

    Well in my mind what Bill did was not dishonesty. I do it all the time in my line of work and when I am talking on the phone during my job I expect to be taped as well since a lot of my expert positions and opinions must consistently represent corporate policy and its statutes.

    What Bill did is just the same as taking notes of your conversation. Its called a recollection of the facts and is far from being dishonest and in fact can be used in a court of law.

    It is quite legal for one party to tape or record another party without their knowledge. What is illegal unless a warrant is obtained is for a third party like the government to listen in on a conversation between two parties.

    I guess you are coming from the point of view that Bill should have asked that WTS man if it was okay for Bill to tape the call. Give me a break. Like that would have brought out the "real truth" from a "real society man" who practices theocratic warfare.

    And it far from backfired. Quite frankly that tape clearly, without a doubt shows how the WTS handled these cases and is extremely important on how explaining the problem to the public as well as to the Court in future court case. Something so useful that Dateline, Panorama and the 5th Estate among others have used on their TV shows.

    Oh BTW I believe the show was called Dateline and it aired on NBC. 20/20 is an ABC show and as far as I remember the ABC network has not run an episode on the abuse scandal.

    As for calling it a pedophile paradise - I think most of the 17 victims who were brutilized by Fitzswater and the 42 who were abused by that sicko in Oregon would tend to agree with Bill's comment. Like, the elders are told not to report in non-reporting states, tell the victims to stay silent under threat of dfing and there needs to be two witnesses if the sicko doesn't confess - when was the last time a person watched a pedophile hurt a kid for christ's sake. I think Bill got it just right for the public to understand what is going on in JW land in the USA and the victims who were featured on the program easily backed him up on it. Dateline could have put 60 more cases on if they wanted too and they would have said the same thing. Keep in mind pedophile paradise does not mean the majority of JWs are pedophiles. What it does mean is that the organization is more concerned about its friggen corporate "clean" image than the victim and when given the opportuntity will hide and protect the pedophile to the fullest extent possible to keep the organization "clean".

    As for your comments on compensation or lack of audited booking practices comments I want to add this - Even though I am not a member of Silentlambs I am not sure if you should have stated what you did until you asked for a copy of their financial statements. Telephone them up and ask for a copy of the statements. If they refuse to give them, then get back to this board. Hinting at accusations like that without backing them up is kinda ... well ... not the greatest thing to do .... especially when I watched the man spend 10 grand of his own money at one time on this issue. If anything I have tried to relay the message over the time I have known him that he should focus more on his home life and candle business and less on this cause as it can be very tiring. But he basically is a one man show and is very passionate about it and is very much on a mission.

    I have always said that before giving donations to Bill, one should consider if they like what he is doing or not and of course should see the books. A lot of folks have reservations of Bill's responses to things especially over the Franz issue. That one no doubt cost him serious coin and possibly some good friends. But hey if you are uncomfortable about his approach then don't donate. If you like it and get to see the books - then let it fly if that is what you want.

    As for being disappointed at what CBS presented. Well you try pulling it off in explaining everything in 2:30 to 3:00 minutes and get back to me. As far as I am concerned CBS didn't do anything to hurt the cause, reported very accurately on Heidi, Oregon and Bill's Silentlambs network and if anything it brought more attention to the cause as some 7 plus million viewers watched.

    hawk

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    On another topic,

    FWIW, I agree with H_S's comments regarding Doug and TH and SOJ.

    hawk

  • DJ
    DJ

    SOJ,

    I'd appreciate it if you would come back to this discussion. I know that when I am personally insulted, I tend to leave the computer and go on with my day because it seems foolish to purposefully subject myself to nonsense. There used to be an ignore feature and I wish that we still had that but we don't so I have to use my mind's ignore feature...lol... There are people who are hurting here because of the judiciary meetings instead of going to the authorities and that is an emotional outrage for victims. I do hope that you can try to understand why some posters are rather heated. I don't know if TH has been personally abused or not. He tends to be an emotional person who lashes out. I am not apologizing for him because that isn't my place but I am saddened by the fact that we seemed to be on the same page about Romans 13 and I understood you to be in agreement with me. Naturally, I'm bothered that your postings stopped after that. I see you as a person who desires to do right even though sometimes your posts are a bit rude too....lol....I don't think that you would be here if you truly believed that the wt was God's sole channel of communication. There is a possibility that they some wrong things, isn't there? They are imperfect, right? Yet, if they teach something that is wrong and demand that we must all believe that wrong teaching and teach it to others.....our consciences bother us. When the wt changes the teaching with new light which then is in agreement with what I thought all along, but was forbidden to speak.... I don't think that's right. We know that the society has changed the interpretation of Romans 13 a few times with reference to whom the "authorities" are. It's clear to me that it means the earthly government not the wt....It speaks of paying taxes, etc.. It's my opinion that the past faulty interpretations by the wt with this chapter may have caused them to distrust the police as God's arrangement. They now have changed back to teaching that the authorities are the gov./police but it seems to me that they haven't adjusted to it fully because they still act as if they are the police, judge and jury.when it comes to child molesters, which is a crime for law enforcement to handle. Do you follow what I'm saying here? Thanks for your time. dj

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