Watchtower to pay for Silentlambs trip

by Dogpatch 182 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  SwordOfJah

  DJ:

  I understand your view. I agree that the police is equipped to determine the facts, although sometimes they screw up big time also. It IS God's arrangement to respect and follow laws by the governing authorities. JWs do that, but the laws of course change from state to state, from country to country. But it's also God's arrangement that elders handle sinners judicially within the congregation. These elders are responsable of keeping the congregation clean.

  I do understand why the Watchtower did not give out confidential information on molestors that have been sent to jail. I believe Mulan also said she knew of a case where this happened. The Watchtower will not reveal confidential cases, specially to the Media. We all know how the Media can turn things around and sensationalize things just to attract viewers. The Watchtower will not play their games.

  As in regards to that phone call that Bill Bowen taped with the brother from the Legal Department, it's interesting that they only played what the Legal Department said. They did not describe the case that Bowen was referring to, we were not able to hear what he told the brother from the Legal Department. Although you criticize the expression "Leave it to Jehovah", this is not hard to understand for us Witnesses that have faith in that Jehovah will make things straight in due time.
• 

  unbeliever

  SOJ,

  Why didn't the elders go to the authorities when there were FIVE girls accusing this brother?? I know why they didn't go but I want to hear your take on it.
• 

  ThiChi

  144,000 and one:

  ""Thi Chi,

  You alleged that I have relied on "false assumptions," yet you failed to cite anything that could be construed as such.""

  Though you did not address my points, I will give you one example:

  You falsely assumed that "Taking your brother to court" was the only aspect to consider, I base this on your simplistic reply to my claim. The reality is "Settling disputes before the Holy Ones" is an integral part of the biblical policy and my claim.
• 

  DJ

  SOJ,

  I agree that some sins should be handled by the elders but criminal activity is for the authorities not the elders. There is a distiction. When a molester confesses and even seems to appear to be repenant to an elder that does not mean that he/she should not be disciplined by the authorities that God uses. The watchtower magazine admits that child molesters rarely change and the molested usually are not lying. Isn't it best too err on the side of caution for the protection of the children in the flock?

  It is possible that the wt didn't give out info about convicted molesters because of confidentiality reasons. It would have certainly been in their favor to atleast say that instead of pointing a case of a non-jw molester. I would have liked to hear what Bowen said to the legal dept. as well. I must admit that was a mistake on the part of Dateline's producer but I doubt in my heart that anything suspicious was being covered up. It was probably a time factor in the editing. I wonder if it is possible to obtain that information. The cases of molestation victims is heartwrenching, don't you agree? It is just sad to know that it could be prevented by using Jehovah's legal authorities (of criminal acts) in the first place. I know that you understand me and it is ok to disagree with the wt policy and still be loved by Jehovah. He knows.
• 

  amac

  I have to agree with 144...

  Mulan had stated:

  their hard earned money is used to attempt to discredit someone like Bill, who is helping victims of a convicted pedophile. Why are they still defending this creep?

  I think 144's point is that they are not using donations to discredit Bill so much as they are using them to defend themselves legally to avoid losing a much larger amount of donations. I see nothing wrong with this.

  I do think that the WT is more concerned with legalities and covering their own hides rather than doing the right thing which is what you would hope "God's Organization" would do. But I do think the initial posted comments of Bill are sensationalized to draw on already bitter attitudes towards the WT.

  The WT are not paying to defend Berry, but to defend themselves.

  I don't know much about this case, so I could be way off mark here, but is the victim also sueing the mother for not reporting to the police or getting professional help for her daughter? It seems to me the mother has greater duty and responsibilty to do this than the elders. And if you are going to sue the elders and their authorities, it only seems right that you sue the mother as well.
• 

  SwordOfJah

  unbeliever:

  The case happened back in the middle of the 1980's. The elders did ask the parents of the girls if they wanted to go to the authorites. The parents all said that they would be satisfied if he was disfellowshipped. The elders left it at that.

  DJ:

  When a molester confesses and even seems to appear to be repenant to an elder that does not mean that he/she should not be disciplined by the authorities that God uses.

  I agree.

  The watchtower magazine admits that child molesters rarely change and the molested usually are not lying.

  True.

  Isn't it best too err on the side of caution for the protection of the children in the flock?

  Yes I agree completely that the protection of the children should be priority #1. But sometimes that the alleged "victim" is an adult and is now remembering or accusing the alleged "abuser". Even in a court of law, those accused do have certain rights. So too in the congregation. They have a right to be heard by a judicial committee before being turned into the authorities.

  The cases of molestation victims is heartwrenching, don't you agree?

  Yes, I agree.

  It is just sad to know that it could be prevented by using Jehovah's legal authorities (of criminal acts) in the first place.

  Only to a point. Because if the abuser is turned into the authorities it's because he has already abused a child. The criminal act is not erased and a child is already damaged. The question is: Will it ever be possible to erase these criminal acts before they happen? Our only hope is to wait on Jehovah.
• 

  144thousand_and_one

  " The question is: Will it ever be possible to erase these criminal acts before they happen? Our only hope is to wait on Jehovah." - - Sword of Jah

  Sorry, Sword, but that's a really pathetic way of dealing with a problem of this nature (i.e. waiting on Jehovah). Policies, procedures, etc., need to be implemented by the Watchtower to ensure that they have no legal OR moral culpability in matters of this nature. If they are creating an atmosphere (e.g., via two witness rule, etc.) that facilitates the commission of crimes of this nature or assists the perpetrators in escaping punishment, then they really do deserve severe legal consequences. Crimes of this nature are so heinous that any and all measures must be taken to prevent their occurence.

  As a child, I "waited on Jehovah" to stop the senseless beatings I got for being unable to sit still and attentive through hours of talks that I found to be incredibly boring. I also "waited on Jehovah" to save me from having to work without compensation to market the message of the Watchtower. After waiting for 14+ years, I took matters into my own hands and ceased all involvement with the Witnesses. I certainly don't regret my decision in this regard.

  BTW, I do respect you for posting here and I apologize on behalf of those who have resorted to ad hominem attacks against you.
• 

  DJ

  Only to a point. Because if the abuser is turned into the authorities it's because he has already abused a child. The criminal act is not erased and a child is already damaged. The question is: Will it ever be possible to erase these criminal acts before they happen? Our only hope is to wait on Jehovah.

  SOJ,
  

  I understand that there will always be criminals and victims until Jesus returns but the point that I was trying to make was for the prevention of new victims. When the elders forgive a confessed and seemingly repentant child molester without submitting him to the authorities for appropriate actions that are determined by the criminal legal system to be appropriate for the crime.....they are in essence letting a molester free to molest again, maybe a different child and the cycle continues. There is a price to be paid for crimes which is for the good of not only the community but also for the chastening of the criminal and monitoring of his behavior in jail for his own good.The court system has considerations for remorseful criminals. This is God's legal arrangement in Romans 13. The molester has broken the laws of the land. The law to report or not is not the issue. The wt should see that obeying Romans 13 is more important than the lack of a law to report. The other responsibilty that the elders have to the community and their own flock is not to make judgements about who is telling the truth and who is not when it comes to a criminal act. They are not the police that God has arranged for the Christian to be obediant to. They are not the jury or the judge. Here is where they are out of bounds. Would an accused murderer of a child within the congregation be handled by the elders too? The answer is yes if one follows the two witness rule for crimes. It is clear that the two witness rule does not apply to crime but to other sin. Child molestation is a crime. The elders should be taught by the society to report all matters of possible crime to the proper governing authorities who are appointed by God. The elders should not have to carry that burden. It is wrong. The elders are given the authority by God within the flock to handle spiritual matters/sin not crimes.
• 

  LyinEyes

  SOJ said: So the responsability falls on those elders to keep an eye on the guy. I was in a congregation where a past molester moved into it. The original body of elders informed that he had been convicted of molesting a child before he became a witness about 10 years back. The new congregations elders met with him and informed him clearly that they did not want to see him touch a child in the congregation, he couldn't pick up a child in his arms, he couldn't be talking to a child by himself. If he did then he would immediately faced a judicial committee. The elders told him that they would protect the congregations children at all costs. He agreed and up to this day they have had no problems with him. Seems a bit extreme being that the conviction had happened 10 years earlier and before he studie with the Witnesses. But the elders wanted to make sure he understeed his restrictions in regards to children.

  If only this would work,,,,,,,but statistics , which I don't have , but have seen on TV documentaries and read about say that MOST child molestors don't stop. They will find ways to be alone with a child.

  Can the elders watch someone who is very skilled at hiding such a thing, at all times? There is no way.......

  What if a family with small children has a small gathering at their house and invites the child abuser, but they have no idea,,,,,,,,,,, could not this man find a way to molest a child , right there in their home as the flurry of activity is going on with a party? It could happen, probably has many times.

  For anyone to think that the molestor will obey the elders restrictions , even when not under their watchful eyes , is naive. Even if this person thought he would never molest another child, given the circumstances and opportunity , he might be compelled to do it again.

  This was proven in an HBO special I was watching where several of the child molestors asked to be castrated if they ever got out of jail because they KNEW they would molest again, even knowing how wrong it was, even if they tried, they knew they would do it again, if the circumstances were just right for them.

  I think it is a grave injustice for the local congregation to not get up on stage and say,,,,,,,a simple annoucement that there is a known child molestor in the congregation and for parents to watch their children. And if this person hangs out with a certain family alot, I think the family should be told to protect the children.

  The local elders do not mind giving a public marking talk on someone who is doing some petty gambling, drinking, or dating a worldly person, or to annouce that a pregnant sister has been delt with by the elders using her name.................

  SO WHY IN THE HECK , sorry.............. DO They Protect the child abusers???????WHy not warn the congregation??
• 

  Xandria

  They have a right to be heard by a judicial committee before being turned into the authorities.

  SoJ: The above quote, says they have a right to be heard by a JC before they are turned over to the authorities.. why? So the situtation can be judged as needing or not needing the authorities involved ?

  The JC should not involve itself in judging matters like this. IT should directly be handled by the authorites. By leaving it to a JC it puts the WTS in a highly actionable position. Because it can be construed ( and a majority of times it is a correct view) that the JC is protecting the abuser, by allowing the eldership to handle something that is not thier place to involve themselves in; the first place. Are any of the Elders crisis Counselors, do they have the education to handle this ??? I don't think so. I would suggest that they have a Case Worker who is not affilated with the JW religion present in the JC meetings. But that is not going to happen.. because the JC will not allow it.

  God's law, states to render Ceasar's things unto... and God's unto..God. By not following the laws of the land, you are breaking God's law.

  We do handle child abuse cases judicially, so these are not running around free as you state. They ARE disfellowshipped from their Witness environment.

  You can have Judical Committees until Jehovah does return. Unfortunately JC's can be biased, on the behalf of the brother or sister being charged with molestation of a child. It is not their place to judge if the child is telling to truth or not. Disfellowshipping is only part of the solution, because many times they are forgiven and returned to the flock. An it, doesn't remove the child from the danger at home. They(the abuser) should be handled by the law and be held accountable for the damaging actions they did. Why should the WTS be defending these people ? Why are they defending themselves, if they are blameless then they should open up and allow open dialog. After all they have nothing to hide..right?

  The "victims" are entitled help but they're not entitled to the donations that we donate towards the preaching work! If the lowlife that abused the "victim" is in prison, shouldn't that be enough instead of trying to screw 6 million witnesses out of their donations?

  So if the "victims" as you put it are entitled to help...pray tell how are they suppose to pay for it ? An if it was the WTS.. protecting the "lowlife" by handling this all by a JC~ and not contacting the authorities, or supressing the families by stating the abuser is d/f as an alternative to going to the law of men. Then aren't they culpable (culpabilis) for aiding the abuser to continue in his path of abuse ? Does the JC follow up with counseling, monitoring, etc. Because in my experience with the brothers and sisters at the KH they are not dilligent in this endevor. Basically they throw one to the sharks, even if they are not guilty of such a terrible crime. So what make one think they are going to follow through with someone who is an abuser. If they do not follow through with loving counsel and encouragement to those who have generally just have "fallen" ? I mean Shunning is after all so loving... right ? How can you help one if you shun them totally. They cannot talk to you.. voice concern. So it is defeating and is un-Godly behavior, especially when you are to love one another, God's words.. here.

  Besides that, the witnesses donate to the WTS, they are the ones using the donations to defend themselves. Perhaps you should take that up with the WTS after all they are in control of how the funds are allocated. An if they do not want to be defending themselves, then they should not put themselves in an actionable positions.

  Your protestations are weak and lack compassion for the victims, the crimes were committed against them~not the WTS. The WTS is culpable, it is not much money in comparison to the lives destroyed by thier lack of follow through.. and they are paying the price for not doing right by the laws of man. An if it is a donation to God for his work, then I think God would pay for damages..just like he decreed in Mosaic Law.

  X.

  Of the "Lucy, you have some splaining to do", Class.