How can we not Love SOJ when he makes such statements as this:
If JWs handle one thing right it's the judicial process.
Watchtower to pay for Silentlambs trip
by Dogpatch 182 Replies latest jw friends
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JT
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obiwan
If JWs handle one thing (right) it's the judicial process.
Rightwing maybe!
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JT
Once again SOJ PROVES AND MAKES my point, notice what he stated:
The new congregations elders met with him and informed him clearly that they did not want to see him touch a child in the congregation, he couldn't pick up a child in his arms, he couldn't be talking to a child by himself.
now let's think about that everyone, here is a guy told by the elders DON'T LET US SEE YOU DOING THIS OR THAT WITH A CHILD
does it really take a rocket scientist to realize-----OK THEN -- I WILL DO MY DIRT WHERE NO ONE SEES ME"
once again --a sincere person perhaps , but badly misguided and uniformed, while my post is not so much for SOJ - PERSAY_
it is really directed at his type of "MINDSET" that we see demostrated on the net OVER AND OVER by JW in thier attempt to try and paint a rosy picture about how the inner workings of the organization take place-
what is really sad about his post and many like him is that they speak too many times about issues THEY know NOTHING ABOUT and that is the real sad part
for one can see just how sincere they are and how much they really want the wt to smell like roses, but the fact remains there are so many things they simply don't know about and to be honest about it that is not really the problem- he fact that they don't know certain things,
cause even myself being a former Society Man there were / and are things that i don't know about when it comes to the INNER workings
the problem is when a jw REFUSES TO LEARN AND LISTEN that is really the sad part
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Xandria
Xandria:
The JC should not involve itself in judging matters like this. IT should directly be handled by the authorites.
I disagree. We are a theocracy first, then we respond to the authorities.SoJ:
So you are willing to back this up completely that all JC's do not discourage going to the authorities after a JC Meeting ??
You are willing to stake say.. your child's welfare on it ?? I think the JC overstep thier authority in matters like this. They are not trained in crisis care, they do not protect the child by forcing the child to face his/her attacker, and the list goes on.
Parents of most denominations would not hesitate to call police first when sexual abuse of their child is reported. But to the Witnesses, all outsiders -- even police and social workers -- are co-conspirators with Satan, part of the condemned world soon to be destroyed by God. As a Witness, when dealing with any wrongdoing "you go to elders first, and then elders make the decision for where you go [from there]. To bypass the organization would be treason," said Anderson.
But these same elders "volunteer, and are essentially untrained clergy," according to a Jehovah's Witness spokesman in the Paducah Sun. They attend no seminary, and have no minimum education requirements, beyond basic literacy. They are equipped for nothing more than enforcing organizational guidelines, delivering biblical platitudes and offering a moment of prayer. When encountering a case of child sexual abuse for the first time, their instructions are first to "call the Legal Department" at the group's headquarters.
The list of mandated reporters of suspected child abuse varies by state. Church spokesmen assert that in those jurisdictions that include clerics as mandatory reporters, the elders are instructed by the Legal Department to make such reports. A recent fax to the BBC in response to a program exposing sexual abuse among the Witnesses noted that "it can be quite a challenge to keep abreast of the reporting requirements, but our Legal Department makes every effort to do so." It should relieve their lawyers to know that The National Clearinghouse on Child Abuse and Neglect Information is funded by the US government and tasked with maintaining a web site with just such information, which shows that only 16 states require reporting by clerics. The hand of divine justice apparently is cut short by a lack of supporting legislation in other jurisdictions.
The assertion that such reports are made by elders when called for by the law has been called into question. Two lawsuits recently lodged against the Witnesses claim that mandatory reporting laws were disregarded, and the abuse continued. In one case, a member is said to have been expelled for making such a report against the advice of the elders, after the elders failed to act. A taped telephone conversation from early 2001, between an elder reporting sexual abuse and headquarters, featured on a recent episode of NBC's Dateline, documented an official from the group advising the elder to "walk away from it," and to "leave it for Jehovah," even though the elder was calling from a state that mandates reporting by clerics.
Some particularly conscientious elders sought to step outside their restrictive bounds as spiritual counselors in seeking to assist those traumatized by abuse. They were holding sessions that amounted to group therapy with victims of abuse, but this was quickly ended by a March 23, 1992 letter to all bodies of elders in the United States, stating that elders are not to hold such sessions nor "spend time reading secular publications dealing with worldly psychology or psychiatry."
"Jehovah's Witnesses are a government that operates within all of the governments of the world. I believe that is the big issue here. They want to decide who is guilty or not guilty," said Barbara Anderson. Witnesses are well known for their defiance of secular governments. The Encarta World English Dictionary includes in its definition of Jehovah's Witnesses that the group "rejects secular law where it appears to conflict with the divine."
So, the investigation of the alleged abuse and the deciding who is guilty or not guilty, falls on the local elders. The burden of proof, barring a confession, is that there must be two members of the faith who can serve as eyewitnesses to the crime, no matter what the infraction. Otherwise, the accused is exonerated and the abused is admonished to treat the accused as innocent in God's eyes and not to repeat the charge to anyone else -- even other potential victims, like younger siblings -- or face expulsion from the congregation and shunning by fellow members, including friends and family. Needless to say, child molesters don't usually seek an audience. So the cycle of abuse continues, while the victim, who summoned the monumental courage to come forward, is now forced back into silence by their spiritual leaders.
Mrs. Anderson, has made some valid points in her thinking and so has Mr. Morris when he wrote this ( the above are excerpts). What do you tell the parents of those whose religious Eldership has failed them ? Wait on Jehovah ? Meanwhile the abuse continues and even at times causes death.
How is the WTS's elders not accountable for the lack of action on thier parts ? Aren't the Eldership the representation of the WTS ??? Do they not represent Jehovah's Organization ?
An by doing so, are accountable for the decisions made ?
The JC has no business counseling these cases until they are prepared and accredited to do so. Which they are not~ how can you help someone when you are not in any position too ?
Until they are regulated by both God's law and submit unto man's law, as decreed by God then they are in direct violation of God's scriptures.
Many will try to justify the means... but remember as you do until the least of them... you do unto God. Those who disregard this fact, shall be accountable to God. The bible clearly states about submitting to the laws of the land. Either way you are nailed. JC have no business judging these cases at all if they are going to dis-sway the victim from going to the authorities. The JC are abusing the authority and responsiblity of thier position by doing as such. Through intimidation, fear, shame, etc, they are swaying the parents and victim from going forth to the authorities. "Don't bring shame unto Jehovah's Organization." Yet by the very act of supression they are shaming God. God is not an organization, church, person, .. he/she just is and is bigger than any religious affiliation. Man has ritualized God, where in the bible does it state that the WTS is Jehovah's Organization ? Point out to me where it references by name the Watchtower Society ??? God, the Creator, the Life force, etc.. is much bigger than any religious affilations. Man harnessing God, for their own purposes. Guess what the WTS are just as blood guilty as the rest for that matter, by not following their own God has decreed.
Romans 13 clearly states it. No amount of explain you can do will justify the disregard that has been shown in this matter. The only thing left to do is change.. which I seriously doubt the WTS will do.. unless they are forced too. Which is sad.
X.
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DJ
>>>>>>>>>>>>left just scratching my head.....how can you agree with my post, SOJ?
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JT
The comment was made:
Cases like these ought to be tried in a courtroom, rather than on a web page.
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to which i reminded the post that this is a Discussion board not a courtroom and his reply was :
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Next time you have a legal case of consequence to you, will you divulge all the details here for everyone to see, including your opponent?
And the answer is--- No I would not,
--that having been said does not mean that others can't discuss it freely if they want to on a discussion board-
Look at the guy in CA accused of killing his wife and baby, that case is discussed each night on tv for hours and why-- cause they are "Discussion shows"
I don't think that most folks would consider discussing an issue like this as being the same as "Trying a Case" in court
But perhaps you do-- I don't know-
I believe that most folks merely look upon a thread like this as merely discussing opinions and views not "Trying a Case"
And besides any good lawyer will tell you that cases are trying in 2 places
1. in court
2. and in the court of public opinion,
I think this setting here would qualify as the Court of Public Opinion,
but then again --you don't have to agree
Perhaps to you it is a real court –
I don't know
just my 2
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obiwan
DJ it's called fence riding.
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Xandria
Fence riding ??? But what about the splinters>??? (snicker)
I guess we are thorns... but for that matter wow.. we protect our roses.
X.
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JT
the comment was made
The JC has no business counseling these cases until they are prepared and accredited to do so. Which they are not~ how can you help someone when you are not in any position too ?
this poster fully understands the real issue-
the Bethel instructor told us that 90-95% of all congo problems can be handled by asking 3 simply questions when dealing with publishers with issues and problems in their lives
Ralph Walls a member of the Factory committee and now an officer of one of the new corps told us that to ask the following it all one has to do
1. Sister are you regular at the meetings
2. Sister are you regular out in service
3 Sister are you regular in keeping up with reading the lastest mag/pub/etc
if a publisher answers NO TO ANY ONE OF THE QUESTIONS ABOVE you tell them THIS IS WHERE YOU PROBLEM IS AT
what was interesting was he DID NOT MENTION REGULAR IN PRAYER OR READING THE BIBLE
YES THE MEN who make decisions that impact folks lives are truly
"CHEESE AND CRACKER MEN"
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144thousand_and_one
JT,
I'm not sure why you chose the large fonts, the persuasiveness of your comments is not commensurate with the size of the font.
As for my comments about trying cases on web pages, what distinguishes the examples you cited is the fact that the folks involved in the discussions you referred to are not expert witnesses who will be used by a party to the case. Public comments by an expert witness regarding the subject matter of his/her case can end up detrimentally affecting their client's case.
"I don't know" - - JT
That is obvious, but it hasn't stopped you from typing, has it?