Undis;
Abaddon said:Undis; Oh, so rather than having a discussion on whether the Bible supports anti-choice or pro-choice, you were just looking for ways you could make an ad hom attack on me. Wonderful, theocratic warfare at its best; you learnt well!Abaddon, I have not used any ad hominen on you as far as I can tell, and I have not used any Theocratic Warfare that I can see. All I did was ask your opinion of partial-birth abortions, and then I get accused of ad hominen and of Theocratic Warfare -- why are YOU so defensive?
You said;
I simply wanted to know your beliefs about it. Partial-birth abortion is most obviously murder. So, I can determine a lot about someone by whether or not they think partial-birth abortions are okay.
Rather than addressing the issue being discussed, you seemed to be asking questions purely in order to be able to judge me and probably attempt to attack my credibility based on a conversation off the topic; we were talking about the Bible and abortion, not the relative wrongness or rightness of various methods of abortion. I think I can be excused for finding this objectionable. I’m glad you were not doing so.
Why not claim that the spirit/soul does not enter the baby until the baby can talk? Afterall, when Adam became a living person, he could talk! So, then, why not claim that it is perfectly okay in God's eyes to kill your baby until it can talk? That statement is VERY "On-Topic", and I will explain why. Your original post claimed that the Bible shows that a human does not become a living human being UNTIL HE takes his first breath. Your original post then used the account of Adam's creation to try to "prove" this as being taught by the Bible. So, then I posted that statement above to show you that Adam's creation has nothing to do with when a child inside the womb becomes a living human being. Think about this: When Adam became a living human being -- HE COULD SPEAK! So, does that mean a person does not become a living human being until he can speak? So, why not say that a person has to speak before God views them as a living human being? My point is, you cannot use the example of God creating a full-grown human being out of dust, to try and "prove" something about a baby inside of a womb. That arguement about Adam's creation has NOTHING AT ALL to do with abortion or miscarriage, so in actuality, you have posted "off-topic" material as well.
I disagree. You are arguing that human life is sacred from the moment of conception, and that a zygote, bastocyst, embryo, foetus or born human are equivalent.
Now, if you believe that the human soul is present from conception, both scripture and etymology point to you being wrong. The Hebrew word for soul is ‘breather’, and make it clear in the scripture regarding
Oh, that’s easy; by saying;
Individual conscience is very important, but murder is wrong, even if someone has a perverted conscience that allows murder.
See? You did want to use an ad hom attack. You imply that someone who approves of abortion approves of murder, and therefore has a "peverted conscience". As there is no explicit scripture regarding abortion to support the equivalancy you assert, you are running ahead.
Your source of guidance in NO WAY at ANY POINT explicitly condemns abortion. It explicitly condemns bestiality; which do you think was more common? How come having sex with animals merits a whole explicit law to itself, and something that would seem to be of greater import has to be deduced by an inference from a scripture that can be interpretted both ways as it is not mentioned explicitly?
It's NOT logical.
Child molestation is wrong, even if someone has a perverted conscience that allows molestation. Rape is wrong, even if someone has a perverted conscience that allows rape. Abaddon said (earlier in this Thread):In the thousands of pages in the Bible, why is it that some things (like masturbation and abortion) are NOT explicitly referred to, even though they were widely known and practised at the time? God couldn’t have ‘forgotten’ to put in a line ‘and abort not a child, as this is a sin before god’, thus the dependence on non-explicit scripture seems to be bringing preconceptions to the Bile rather than taking belief from it.That arguement is also weak, unless you are trying to say that the God approves of molesting children, because God did not put a specific command not to molest children in the Bible either.
Also, the Title of this Thread: "The word of God makes it clear to us that abortion is not a sin" is wrong, even if Exodus is saying that a fine must be paid for killing an unborn child. Why would God's Law say that a fine must be paid UNLESS a SIN was committed? Even if Exodus 21:22 is talking about paying a fine for killing an unborn child, it is obvious that the Bible says killing an unborn child, even accidentally, is a SIN, and a fine is charged against the one who committed this SIN.
You’re taking a step back; first of all you are arguing equivalency between abortion and murder (for which the penalty was murder); now you’re trying to say that abortion is equivalent to murder because a fine has to be paid! That’s not consistent! Perhaps the causing of an accidental miscarriage was seem as something that required compensation to be made to the one suffering loss? However, as the syntax of the sentence allows it to be interpreted as referring to death or harm to the mother OR the infant, it could equally talking about harm to the woman.
Abaddon said:Thus I would say you are entitled to your feelings and beliefs, but by your own faith seem to have to allow others freedom of conscience or condemnation. I’m sorry you find this so hard.You are trying to say that Christians are supposed to NOT condemn what Christians believe to be MURDER, and you are just flat-out WRONG. It is obvious that if someone believes that something is MURDER, then they should condemn it.
But you haven’t proved that abortion is murder. You can have that opinion, fine, but I can have the opinion your not basing your belief on an accurate interpretation of the Bible and that are actually doing wrong by your misinterpretation.
You are free to believe what you want. I do not agree with your beliefs. I do condemn the act of abortion as murder (I do not condemn the people who do the act).
Ah! THAT "(I do not condemn the people who do the act)" is something I can respect you for, even if we disagree over the Biblical stance on abortion.