The kind of Man GWBush is.

by Yerusalyim 208 Replies latest social current

Yerusalyim

Realist,
I don't think I've advocated eliminating Social Security, what I did was advocate welfare reform. I'm all for personal responsibility though, something generally NOT supported by those who want to just throw money at welfare.
Hamas

Yerusalyim;
Looks like the Coalition spiced up those war dossiers after all then !
Tony Blair is getting into increasing trouble in the UK about this whole escapade. Looks like they deliberatly spiced up these documents to make it seem like there was a real case for war.
No weapons found = no real case.
The murder of innocent civilians by the coalition forces must be brought before international court.
Realist

yeru,
I'm all for personal responsibility though, something generally NOT supported by those who want to just throw money at welfare.
the problem is that there are just too many people who are not able to take care of themselves for whatever reason. the far lower crime rate in europe is partially caused by the better welfare system. also i think it increases the quality of life if one doesn't have to worry of landing under the bridge once you get sick or loose your job.
jayson,
i don't think one requires a Ph.D. in economics to reach that conclusion!
Jayson

Realist realist realist. U R always so polite to me. <sigh>
In your lifetime you will either see a radical EU change in it's generous welfare social system or it's total collapse. Time will tell. American social welfare is very productive when admisistered correctly and responsibly. In California one out of four people either are getting welfare they are not entitled to or not getting what they should. That is just outragous. But Gray is still Gov. of that state. Go figure. I believe that the average [western] European is more educated than the average American. However, I think that the inability to face the ideological factors that seperate are as vast as the ocean. In fact I don't think we have much in common any more. It's true that some American's (a minority) share the desire to try the "third way" of socialism along with the EU. It will fail for the same reasons that trickle down ecomonics fail. The US will never stand for a world tax so long as Communists and Tyrants get equal treatment in the UN.
Tricky down econ- fails because it assumes that people who can take care of themselves will when given reasonable opportunity. This is false people are lazy.
Socialism fails because it holds back those who want to over perform and they are the ones who spur on an economy. They can't do what they do and the economies stall then socialism can't meet it's promises to the people. Oh ya and corruption.
As long as there are nation-states and ideology these two things along with the entire ideological continumm (I've explained that term before) will continue. The US will dominate for our lifetime and that's life. The Middle East will improve but not see peace in our lifetime. China will be the new force in the 21st century. Western Europe will take it's place as second and third rate powers indignantly.
All my opinion off the top of my head. btw have you ever read "The Ten Things You Can't Say In America?" You'd like it realist.
Realist

hello Jayson,
U R always so polite to me. <sigh>
there was never a reason to be inpolite!
it is important to find a good middle way between socialism and capitalism. in europe several countries found that perfect middle way. germany, switzerland, scandinavia, austria etc.
unfortunately corruption damaged the systems in some of these countries. and in case of germany the reunification was just too much to handle. after all 1/4 of the population had to be brouhgt to a western standard from a previously completely run down country.
in fact people are more motivated to work hard if they have security to their lives and a right to vacations and decent income. germany had over long periods the highest productiviy / worker in the world. thats because the relatively high level of basic social security was combined with insentives to work hard.
imo the US would be wise to increase basic rights for the average worker. it would diminish many of the prevalent probelms in the US like crime rate, poverty, working poor etc.
In fact I don't think we have much in common any more.
hmmm i would have to disagree. in 90% of the issues americans and europeans share an opinion. there are certain issues where we disagree but there is more that connects than what devides us.
Jayson

hmmm i would have to disagree. in 90% of the issues americans and europeans share an opinion. there are certain issues where we disagree but there is more that connects than what devides us.

I hope you are right realist. I really do.
imo the US would be wise to increase basic rights for the average worker. it would diminish many of the prevalent probelms in the US like crime rate, poverty, working poor etc.
Washington state has some of the highest minimum wage rates in the nation along with a progressive welfare medicade system. It is in the hole just like the rest in fact it is worse off than most. It will have a hard time recovering to what it was. It has spent millions on immigrant housing with little to show for it. Giving away money does not promote making more. And money must be made to be taxed to give away. Did you know that less than 100 years ago Senators were appointed and not elected in America? Think of the lower panhandling by Congress if 1/2 of it didn't have to do it to maintain office.
The US gives so much. Domesticly and Internationaly
http://www.usaid.gov/pubs/cbj2003/map.html
But in the words of Christ. They [the poor] will always be with us. So how much is enough? Every immigrant into America should recieve a check for? The key to crime is punishment. It's why I support self defense laws. In the US crime and criminals are treated to gently. Criminals in gangs should be treated like the mob. As a society we treat criminals in our social group and family with the "not my kid" mentality. We need to grow up. In Japan a crime reflects on the family not just the individual. We need some of that kind of responsibility.
I know some army brats in service that go online and make up the most bogus stances to watch people sqirm. I can't help but wonder how many jwd'ers make up arguments just to watch people try and reason with something & them that in reality they could not care less about.
Realist

Good morning Jayson,
i am not familiar with the situation in washington state. so i cannot really comment on it. however i looked for "minimum wage" "budget deficit" "washington state" on google and up came this page: http://www.econop.org/EOISpeaks.htm
with this as one of the first paragraphes:
Behind the Scenes in the Movement to Preserve the Estate Tax, January 29, 2003
A Public Policy Discussion with Chuck Collins, co-author with Bill Gates Sr.
of Wealth and Our Commonwealth: Why America Should Tax Accumulated Fortunes
The income gap between the rich and everyone else in the U.S. is growing. The recent repeal of the federal estate tax will widen the gap even more. Washington state already has the most regressive tax system in the country, yet a movement is underway to eliminate our state's estate tax, too. Join us for a conversation with Chuck Collins to discuss the myths, arguments, and facts behind the movement to reform the estate tax.
Chuck Collins is the co-founder and program director of United for a Fair Economy (UFE). Founded in 1995, UFE is a national non-partisan organization that draws attention to the dangerous consequences of growing income and wealth inequality in the United States and inspires action to reduce economic inequality. In 1997, he co-founded Responsible Wealth, a project of United for a Fair Economy, to bring together business leaders and investors to publicly speak out against economic policies and corporate practices that worsen economic inequality. He is co-author with William Gates, Sr. of Wealth and Our Commonwealth: Why America Should Tax Accumulated Fortunes. [Read an excerpt from the book.]
to me it looks like as if WS had very low taxes and that is what causes the budget deficit.
also i fail to see how high minimum wages would be directly linked to a budget deficit.
to give immigrants a house seems indeed extraordinarily generous. if this is true they indeed should change that policy.
on the other hand to let immigrant enter an area where there is no housing available is not wise either. europe has a huge problem with immigration from eastern europe, africa and asia. if there are not enough jobs available the only possible conclusion is to not allow them to enter the state.
Did you know that less than 100 years ago Senators were appointed and not elected in America? Think of the lower panhandling by Congress if 1/2 of it didn't have to do it to maintain office.
you mean the US should go back to this habit? what would that mean to the already poorly developed democratic system?
The US gives so much. Domesticly and Internationaly
that depends to what country you compare the US too. the US has the lowest social security and international aid spendings in the western world. on the other hand the highest defense budget and one of the highest costs on prisions. that money could be put to better use.
So how much is enough?
enough so that they can live a very simple life. they should be able to afford a small apartment in a cheap area and have enough money for food.
Every immigrant into America should recieve a check for?
if the economy cannot use additional workers than the borders should be closed. to let people in and not provide them with the minium required to survive is a not very intelligent strategy imo.
The key to crime is punishment.
i would have to strongly disagree. punishment - even the death penalties - do not prevent crimes. security, education and equal chances prevent crimes. the higher the living standard the lower the crime rate.
It's why I support self defense laws.
self defense laws are absolutely ok. europe is too restrictive in that case imo.
In the US crime and criminals are treated to gently.
again i would have to disagree. the US is for instance the only western country that still practises capital punishment. the harsher the punishment the more violent the society gets. resocialisation would be better than pure puishment.
where the US should be harsher are white collar criminals! guys like the investment bankers that ruined thousands of people by telling them to buy worthless stocks should loose all their money and not be allowed to work in banking ever again. but here the US justice system has a blind eye it seems.
In Japan a crime reflects on the family not just the individual. We need some of that kind of responsibility.
that would require complete restructuring of the US and western society. although i would like to see values like honor to come back to the western world i don't think it will happen. the opposite seems more likely.
Yerusalyim

Hamas, my evil wicked friend...seems like though the actual WMD haven't yet been found, more and more clues are pointing to the fact that Saddam had WMD programs, such as the scientist that turned over a two foot stack of research into Nuclear weapons that SHOULD have been turned in in 1991...oh well, facts don't seem to bother you.
Hamas, did you know there was a BIG difference in INTENTIONALLY targeting civilians, and the civilians that die because dictators and cowards hide amongst the common people? Of the 4000 civilians that died in Iraq few can be blamed on the US. It's still unknown how many of those 4000 were/are military in civilian clothing or Fedeyen.
Many of the dead were killed by Saddam's own weapons falling short, like Air Defense missles falling on markets, etc.
Yes 4000 civilians died, which is unfortunate, it's also unfortunate that the coalition is still finding mass graves of the 10's of thousands Saddam murdered.
I notice you're not yet ready to denounce the targeted killing of innocent civilians
Realist

yeru,
targeting civilians is terrible. yet it is the only way the palestinians can fight for their cause.
it is different if you have a strong army at your disposal that is capable of defeating the enemy or if your only weapon are suicide bombers.
in critical situations such as WWII or vietnam the US targeted civilians and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent woman and children.
extreme situations unfortunately bring about extreme measures.
about the evidence for WMD programs. i think it is damn hard to find a country without scientists working in nuclear physics. are you telling me that there are no scientists in the US who own papers about how to build nuclear devices?
to conclude saddam had an active nuclear weapons program because a scientist kept papers is as weak as it gets.
what other clues are there that saddam had an active weapons program? the mobile bio labs have been dismissed by the experts for bioweoapn production that were carried to iraq.
berten

Since this is a thread about Bush & his friends,I thought the following would
fit here nicely:
http://www.reseauvoltaire.net/IMG/pdf/CartesRegimeBush.pdf

The kind of Man GWBush is.

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