72 Virgins for Martyrs !!! Here are the facts.

by Amazing 37 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Yerusalyim

  AB,

  My point was that the Hadith is not drawn from modern scholars but based on ancient tradition.

  What's your point about papal infallibility, which you obviously misunderstand. The last time a pope clearly made an Infallible Statement was in the 1950's. Some considered the statement by JP2 about not ordaining women as infallible, but it doesn't really qualify because the pope himself didn't state this as the intent.

  At the moment these pronouncements condemn many people to large families and increase the incidence of sexually transmitted disease such as AIDS.

  That is just so much BULL SHIT. People can't control their sex drive? The rythm method doesn't work? If people were living monogamous lives as the bible encourages, AIDS wouldn't have spread. If the people of the world followed the teaching of the Church, the AIDS epidemic would never have become an epidemic. Don't blame personal irresponsibility on the Catholic Church having standards. NOW, if the Church were promoting promiscous sex and illegal drug use, THEN you could say that sexually transmitted disease were a result of the Churches teaching. Listen, people who ignore the churches teaching on illicit sex will also ignore the teaching of the church about birth control, besides, the condom doesn't stop all STD's does it.

  Are you saying that all religions are NOT idiotic and SHOULD have more influence

  Influence on individuals yes. The evidence of what happens when the influence of religion is absent is present in China and USSR. Is that the life you want? The goals of most religions are good and honorable, care of fellow humans, a common good. What's so wrong with that?

  For cultural reasons it seems Isalm is very effected by the stain of fundamentalism, but that same stain is seen in Christian, Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist belief, as well as some secular ideologies.

  Some secular ideologies? Like the enviroNazis putting spikes in trees or the commies and their peace loving ways? The problem is FANATICISM not ideology. Some ideologies however lend themselves to violence.
• 

  Abaddon

  My point was that the Hadith is not drawn from modern scholars but based on ancient tradition.

  What's your point about papal infallibility, which you obviously misunderstand. The last time a pope clearly made an Infallible Statement was in the 1950's. Some considered the statement by JP2 about not ordaining women as infallible, but it doesn't really qualify because the pope himself didn't state this as the intent.

  Oh, are you a Catholic? I didn’t know.

  http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

  http://www.catholic.com/library/birth_control.asp

  Seems infallibility “is not a doctrine that suddenly appeared in Church teaching; rather, it is a doctrine which was implicit in the early Church” , and that birth control is “ always intrinsically wrong”.

  That is just so much BULL SHIT. People can't control their sex drive? The rythm method doesn't work?

  Actually, no it doesn’t. Putting your ignorance of contraceptive efficacy to one side, why should people control their sex drive? That’s contrary to Biblical commandments; ‘be fruitful…’ and ‘do not be withholding…’.

  If people were living monogamous lives as the bible encourages, AIDS wouldn't have spread. If the people of the world followed the teaching of the Church, the AIDS epidemic would never have become an epidemic. Don't blame personal irresponsibility on the Catholic Church having standards.

  Yes, but there is the small matter of heterosexual sexual biology being full of indications that monogamy is just a religiously codified social tradition, and that humans are biologically inclined to screw around. One of the bigger proof that the Bible obviously isn’t god’s word; it would be like BMW issuing a manual that told people their cars ran on treacle.

  NOW, if the Church were promoting promiscous sex and illegal drug use, THEN you could say that sexually transmitted disease were a result of the Churches teaching. Listen, people who ignore the churches teaching on illicit sex will also ignore the teaching of the church about birth control,

  Nah, I say that if they (the Church) were not so blinded by ancient traditions, they would not support a doctrine that DOES result in large families amongst those least able to cope (more educated people tend to ignore the doctrine on contraception), and that DOES add to the transmission of AIDS.

  If you want to be really tedious, I can trawl through some WHO research figures et. al., and show you how such a ‘Hadith’ by the pope causes damage to peoples live.

  So, are you exercising a double standard? Seems so on what you’ve said so far.

  And I take it you admit you were attempting to derail the conversation onto secular politics as you’ve stopped...

  besides, the condom doesn't stop all STD's does it.

  If it’s intact it does, or are you adding permeability of latex to viral particles to your list of strange beliefs (you know, like you believing the USA have never sponsored terrorist activity)?
• 

  Yizuman

  Problem with condoms is that the AIDS virus is one mircon long while the microscopic holes on the condom is 4 microns long.

  So AIDS can pass thru the hole and infect the person wearing the condom.

  Not a 100% protection.

  This is like Russian Rullette.

  Yiz
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Abaddon,

  You misquoted. What the church teaches is that ARIFICIAL birthcontrol is intrinsically wrong, HOWEVER there are cases when it's allowed.

  The rythm method is every single bit as effective as condoms IF used properly.

  Part of being human is mind overcoming instinct. My instinct might tell me to knock the sh*t out of someone, but my mind tells me society should run that way. The same with sex, society is better, and more stable when people are engaged in monogomous relationships.

  I care what the WORLD ABORTION PROMOTING ORGANIZATION THINKS? NOT AT ALL. These guys have as their agenda abortion as birthcontrol. Facts are, the world population is fixing to top out fairly soon here.

  Ya just completely ignore the fact that if people engaged in monogomous sexual relations and didnt do illegal drugs that the HIV/AIDS wouldn't be a problem. So, rather than backing the idea of controling behavior, blame the church. KNUCKLEHEAD!
• 

  MrsQ

  *ahem*

  I am a Muslim.

  Not only is the 72 Virgins derived from Hadith...but it would interest you all to know that there are different grades of Hadith, ranging from "strong" to "weak". You will find that the weakest Hadith usually are those containing the most outlandish stories.

  The Hadith were saying of the Prophet Muhammad, and they did not even begin to be collected until almost 200 years after his death. THEREFORE, many of them must be taken with a grain of salt.

  Just because millions of people believe it doesn't make it true. Millions of people think Jesus was born on December 25, too.

  I'd really appreciate it if you guys didn't talk out your asses about a religion that none of you seems to know a damn thing about.

  I'm not interested in debating this on the message board, but if anyone wants to discuss it with me one-on-one, you can PT me.

  Peace.

  Q.
• 

  crownboy

  Yeppers, and China and the USSR were SHINING examples of the absence of religious influence on government.

  How exactly was lack of religion the specific reason for the atrocities that occured in these places? Why didn't belief in god stop the Nazi's from killing all those Jews? Why didn't belief in god stop American Christains from endorsing slavery? Why did god inspire old St. Paul to be OK with slavery to begin with? The way I see it, religion and belief in god has very little influence on morality. The country with the highest percentage of Christains in the world is Rwanda, and some of the most peaceful places to live in the world is the non god fearing nations of Scandinavia. The reasons for the way people act have nothing to do with whether or not they believe some invisible guy is checking them out 24/7, especially since people who believe in him almost always find a way to show that what they are doing is sanctioned by their invisible guy. It's a bit more complicated than that.

  As far as the original intent of the thread, good points. It gets very tedious sometimes to discuss Islamic atrocities, because everytime you do so you have to acknowledge that other religions have their skeletons, or that certain practices that are still allowable and wide spread by Islam were used by others, as if these points were not already known. Untill Islamic countries and Muslims stop burying their heads in the sand (and untill certain western liberals stop trying to protect Islam from valid critisicm) and face up to the fact that their religion needs reform, things will continue to be bad for them. And pointing to moderate western Muslims doesn't help either; they're not the guys we worry about.
• 

  Hamas

  I'd really appreciate it if you guys didn't talk out your asses about a religion that none of you seems to know a damn thing about.

  Well said.

  MrsQ, sorry I haven't PM you yet, it keeps saying error for some reason.

  I enjoyed your post.

  www.escapethewatchtower.com
• 

  Yerusalyim

  I'd really appreciate it if you guys didn't talk out your asses about a religion that none of you seems to know a damn thing about.

  OK, I take some exception to being accussed of talking out of my a$$ about Islam IF that was directed at me. While not a Muslim, I know more about Islam than the average bear. And yes, the original purpose of this thread did kinda get changed into an attack on ALL religion.

  Scandanvia? Rhode Island could kick their a$$ in a war. Scandanavian Laws, like that of Western Europe in general, were still formed on the morality of the Judeo Christian tradition. The Nazi's were NOT on a whole religious, if anything, they were occultists.
• 

  MrsQ

  OK, I take some exception to being accussed of talking out of my a$$ about Islam IF that was directed at me. While not a Muslim, I know more about Islam than the average bear. And yes, the original purpose of this thread did kinda get changed into an attack on ALL religion.

  This was not directed at you. You are very correct in your description of the Hadith and the role they play in Islam. Personally, I am a big skeptic of the Hadith, and one of a growing group who would like to see major reform in Islam. The Hadith, by their very nature, are contradictory and unreliable. They contain some good information, but they are in many cases, undeservedly held up as equal to the Qur'an. The Qur'an is very simple and eloquent, and quite fair.

  For example--in the Qur'an death is not prescribed for adultury. Adultury is punishable by 40 lashes for both the man and the woman--and only after 4 witnesses can verify the act took place. Some hadith, however, prescribe death.

  Another example: women covering their hair. The Qur'an does not specifically prescribe it. People use hadith to say that it is mandatory. Many women (myself included) do not cover their hair, then.

  The great problem modern Muslims are dealing with is that many Islamic countries have an extremely high illiteracy rate. Also, you're dealing with culture and tradition. Many Muslims cannot even explain why they believe what they believe. It's just what has been done for centuries.

  If anyone is interested in reading a positive and moderate declaration of modern Muslims, please check out : Taking Back Islam. It was recently published--after September 11--and contains many short essays by Muslims from all races and professions.

  It is important to remember that the "Taliban" does not represent Islam. And calling Saddam Hussein an Islamic Leader is the same as calling George W. Bush a Christian Leader. Both are politicians, and both will use religion when they need to to whip up the masses into a frenzy of righteous indignation.

  For the most part, religion is a red herring in these political conflicts. A way to get people behind the political agendas of their leaders.

  Q.
• 

  Double Edge

  So if the Moslem men who blow themselves up get 72 virgins.... what do the women get who also blow themselves up as 'martyrs'?