A question for those churchgoing ones...forgiveness

by ashitaka 68 Replies latest jw friends

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  ashitaka

  This is in reference to the comments that KGB made on the thread I started yesterday about the molester who was crushed underneath a car.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/54218/1.ashx

  He talked of forgiveness of murderers, molesters, rapists, etc. I know that many churchgoes feel the same way about this.

  My question is, If God can forgive murderers, rapists, etc., then what about those who don't believe in God, who don't have 'faith'? Why would such a forgiving God judge those who live good lives, treat their families, neighbors, friends and workmates with respect, work hard and die a good person, why would God choose to judge these men in the same light as those aforementioned criminals?

  I'll tell you; this morning, I watched people of all ages leave my apartment complex going to church. Muslims, jews, catholics, the old couple dressed to the nines, all of them slowly driving to their churches, while I sat on my porchstep, drinking a coffe and smoking a ciggarette, watching the birds eat worms and rabbits eat grass.

  I know that these same people with their pretty clothes and quiet demeanor, can at times do horrific things. Still, I bet you they would judge me in a minute for not believing in God. Secure in their 'faith', they would say to themselves, "Well, that poor sinner (me) is going right to hell, or his eternal death, or will be reincarnated as a snail, for his faithlessness."

  Who's to say that God judges us by our faith and not by our actions (I say this hypotheically, being an athiest). Can a person live their whole lives as a 'faithless one' and still be counted righteous by God, even if he is mired in his own disbelief? Is God really able to put terrible sinners above those with no faith?

  ash
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  jgnat

  Ashitaka, do not make the mistake that all Christians judge by outward appearance, as the JW's do. Evil is evil, and God is not fooled by lip service. My pastor used to say, "Sitting in a garage does not make you a car." Here is a portion of a response I did, privately, for StinkyPantz:

  3. So let me get this straight. You believe that we are judged for what we do. So, if an atheist was a decent person who went through life doing decent things; that God doesn’t care if he believes in him and he will be saved?
  Actions count, not words.
  Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens. Matthew 7:21 Darby
  
  It is impossible to do God’s will (kindnesses to others) without being approved of God.
  (The apostles wanted Jesus to stop a man from healing in his name, because he was a stranger to them) Forbid him not; for there is no one who shall do a miracle in my name, and be able soon after to speak ill of me; for he who is not against us is for us. Mark 9:40
  
  Paul told an audience of Greek philosophers that they were already worshipping God, at their alter to “the unknown God”. He told them that God exists not in man-made constructs, but in very creation itself. I see God in beautiful sunrises, infinite starsky, the tenderness of birdparents, the majesty of our Rockies. Paul concludes that all men have thus seen God. (Acts 17:23-31)
  
  Therefore, an athiest who went through life doing God’s will would be God’s agent whether he acknowledged Him or not.

  Consider, Ash, that you have pre-judged all those church-goers by their outward appearance. Each one of them is unique before God, and a friendly sit-down would reveal wonderful things about each one of them. At least that has been my experience. Oh, yes, a few jerks thrown in the mix. I avoid such ones.
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  little witch

  Good post Ash.

  Personally, as a Christian, I believe Jesus came to say that God loves us all, and is available to us all in equal terms, and that he strongly condemned those who taught otherwise. (God is no respecter of persons). This was not what the holier than thou types wanted to hear. It made them insignificant in their heirarchy they had worked so hard to set up.

  It is certainly not my place to say whom the Lord will forgive. But I do know, Christ loved children and the most vulnurable ones amoung us. I do know he said something to this effect. Anyone who harms the little ones, would wish they had had a millstone tied to them and that they were thrown into the sea. In other words, don't make me open a can of whipass. Do not harm my children.

  That, in my opinion amounts to "Better a car falls on you, for hurting kids, and I will deal with you even more harshly"

  Anyway, I think the forgiveness issue gets taken out of context. I don't see anywhere in the bible that says to forgive all sin outright. There have always been rules of decency, and laws based on morality. I don't think we as Christians have to forgive child molesters, Let God be their judge, after they recieve their just punishment here and now.
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  Big Tex

  I believe in God, but frankly at the moment many of my beliefs regarding Christianity are in flux. I don't know for a fact that God does forgive all sins, or all sinners. I would think much of his attitude toward a molestor would depend greatly on their attitude.

  Are they sorry for what they did, or are they sorry they got caught?

  I'm coming to believe that, within certain obvious parameters, God doesn't care so much what we do but why we do it. Stealing is wrong, but what about stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family? Killing is wrong, but what about if it happens whilst defending yourself? See, I'm coming to believe there are not so many black and white issues for God. I am thinking that he looks more at our history, our experiences and our attitude when we do what we do.

  Having said that, I can't ever see a reason for any sex crime.
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  ashitaka

  Therefore, an athiest who went through life doing God’s will would be God’s agent whether he acknowledged Him or not.

  Still, I think you could ask any person what their theology was, and that was, if you don't believe in God, he will judge you. I thought that was the standard line in churches.

  Consider, Ash, that you have pre-judged all those church-goers by their outward appearance. Each one of them is unique before God, and a friendly sit-down would reveal wonderful things about each one of them.

  I do believe that. Still, would they be judging me for not believing in God?

  Anyway, I think the forgiveness issue gets taken out of context. I don't see anywhere in the bible that says to forgive all sin outright. There have always been rules of decency, and laws based on morality. I don't think we as Christians have to forgive child molesters, Let God be their judge, after they recieve their just punishment here and now.

  Agreed.

  I am thinking that he looks more at our history, our experiences and our attitude when we do what we do.

  If I did believe in God, I would expect that this would be my opinion as well.

  ash
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  teenyuck

  I just read both threads. I am confused. (normal most of you would say-)

  What is the whole point of forgiveness? I am an atheist also, so I don't buy into the whole "I must confess, give myself to Jesus (whatever that means) and God will forgive me".

  Forgive me for what? What have I done that is so egregious that, if there is a God, he would put me down in hell with Satan for?

  I never hurt a child. I never killed anyone. I never stole anything (even a lollipop), and I used to pray.

  Praying got me no where. I felt nothing.

  I do not mean to offend any "christians", however, you all sound like every other "christian" born-againer, who thinks that because they watch Jerry Falwell, they will be *saved*. Whatever that means.

  Since we have no proof of heaven or hell, why should I worry about it? Why should I wonder or care if some invisible diety is watching me and knows what is in my *heart* (brain, dummy)?

  Why would this incredible, powerful diety send down a seemingly physically weak man, (why didn't or couldn't he fight off his captors?), to represent him, to wipe away all our sins?

  It just doesn't add up. None of it.

  As for forgiving someone who has hurt you; I am ambivilant. I think it makes one feel good to say they forgave someone, however, I think in reality, it happens a lot less than people talk about. Saying you forgive someone and getting them alone in a room, tied to a pole, for you to do your worst, I think would bring out the real forgiveness in *most* people.
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  KGB

  Jesus said "Not all who say Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven. The definition of a Christian is this. They except that Jesus was born from a devine nature and not by insemination. He lived his life as a perfect human being, and he died in order that those who believe in him and his purpose would be saved from the second death. And be forgiven of our sins while alive when we ask him for forgiveness. When we become a Christian we remove the old wardrobe and put on a new one which means applying the fruits of the spirit to our lives. Being a Christian does not make us perfect but being saved by grace and grace alone we will not be judged. Romans 8:2 says "For in the law of the spirit of Jesus Christ has saved me from the law of sin and death. That does not mean we are not going to die as humans as we all know we will all die in this body but we are saved from the second death the death that is permanant..

  I really feel sorry for those of you who claim to be Athiest, as at one time you were proclaimers of God and his word, all the people that knew you when you preached his word and now disown it and others see that, I can only imagine what they think of you now. I'm sure they probably have some pretty nasty thoughts which in turn I also think is sad as I believe that it is our love and understanding thats shows and prevails his name.

  Teenyuck, you can add all the little remarks you want that I posted as to tear me down and thats ok because you will no longer beable to get to me, I really don't care what you think of me or what I say or believe anymore. You have no strength over me anymore. So go ahead and show everyone just the kind of person you are with your hateful and vicious words. It is obvious you hate other people and you must hate yourself too, I will pray for you gal. My strength will always over power yours as mine comes from the one who gave us life and the one who can take it away....God Bless you.
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  StinkyPantz

  KGB-

  Why is it your words sound way more cruel that Teeny's? You sound extremely judgemental and self-righteous.

  So I have a question: Say a person rapes children his whole life, into the thousands. Then right before he dies, he's truly sorry. On the other hand this athiest over hear dedicates his life to helping children, saving many from suicide. This person dies an athiest. According to your theory God will save the ex-child-molester, but not the athiest who was a far deserving person. THIS is why I cannot believe in the Bible.

  If there is a God, I think he'd be more fair.
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  StinkyPantz

  Ashitaka-

  I won't lie. I judge people and I do not forgive people that do not deserve it. I don't rely on a book to tell
  ME who deserves MY forgiveness. If my child steals a lollipop, I'll forgive him, but if he rapes or kills someone I might not.
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  KGB

  stinkypants,

  where are my words more cruel, I thought I was being kind and understanding. I believe in what the scriptures say, and yes if a person that does bad things all there life and just before they die except Christ then according to the bible they are saved. I don't know what else to tell you about that. You being someone who used to claim an accurate knowledge of the scriptures at one time should well know what the scriptures say. Just because you left the borg didn't mean you forgot all you learned from your studing the bible did it ? I guess if you think that when I say I will pray for the atheist is cruel then I guess to you it is cruel, sorry for that. I'm sorry if my cotinued belief in God bothers some of you but this is my right to choose to do so just as you have the right to choose against the Lord, so why is it that you atheist can't leave us believers alone in that. Why do you continuly try to tear us down for what we find peace in. If your peace is in not believing in God then so be it. That's your choice.

  Yes I have said some pretty vicious words in some of the post here but at the same time I felt regret and posted an apology for it. It was my guilt as a Christian that made me feel bad, I sure don't see an atheist here saying sorry for all there hateful words. Maybe its because Gods gives us who believe in him humility and those who don't have the same values as Satan has. So it kind of fits for each of us don't you think ? The only difference is I will not die permanantly but the atheist will, thats sad !