When You See a JW Do You Get Flustered?

by minimus 104 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Tom Harley

  "Whiner" was in my original writing. I would not have used it here were I to write afresh, for it is an insult. Perhaps I shouldn't have used it. Sorry.

  The things Sparky1 relatesI attribute mostly to backbiting and gossip, which happens anywhere. In fact, the closer knit an organization is, the more likely it is to happen. It is just people being people, though if you are the target of it, it seems much more.

  As to promises that did not turn out equated to lies, whenever someone throws one of them at me, I say: "Oh, we changed that." And why not? It's not a piece of cake looking into the future - everyone knows that - so if you screw up, you back out and tackle the subject anew. Their are plenty of examples in the Bible of faithful ones doing or saying things that did not pan out.

  Someone will say: "Here they have said we don't make mistakes and here they have said we sometimes do." I will reply that we changed that, too. It's a little embarrassing, but it happens. Only a ten-year old holds his breath and turns blue over such things, though I will admit that there are many ten-year olds.

  Apparently, God is cool with it, even if he is not thrilled. If he was steamed, he would short-circuit jw.org so that it only read in English and Pig Latin, instead of the 900 languages it does read in. You understand that I use this as a representation of all that is being done to spread the JW message, not as a feat unto itself. If there was a working substitute somewhere, only absent the jerks, I would go there. But there isn't, and it becomes apparent to me that God puts up with jerks even as he is trying to overhaul them because that's what so many of us are.

  The Witness world does its best to be Bible based and thus is 180 degrees from the non-Witness world in which Christianity will surely end up the loser. When Jesus was brought before Pilate, he didn't sweet-talk his way out of it, did he? and he said his followers would be as popular as he. So if one leaves the JW world, they have to adapt to a world they may have known little about previously, and this gives rise to stress, even bitterness if one comes to feel that they were not prepared for life.

  Many Witnesses burn bridges leading to the other side. I am atypical in that I don't. That's not to say I travel those bridges frequently, but they are available if I want to see what's going on over there or even to communicate. It was an experiment coming here, and I probably will not remain long, and I apologize to whoever started up this thread, for I have stolen it. I will not steal her next one. Obviously, jehovah's witnesses .com is not the Assembly Hall, but without doing a lot of research, which I didn't want to do, I didn't know just what the makeup would be. Better to stick a toe in the water and see what happens. To a certain extent, it is because I am a writer, and I enjoy the challenge of navigating difficult shoals.

  Everyone must admit I've been a good boy, unless the mere representation of the other side is to be a bad boy. I have not insulted, or if I have, only a little - certainly less than I have been slammed here by some. I have resisted many attempts to draw me into shoving matches or pissing contests. Many places you do not go primarily for reasons of times management. Personal stories you do not weigh in on because you know you are seeing only a tip of an iceberg - perhaps if the berg were to rotate the tip would look altogether different.

  It's not been my intention to troll or otherwise act despicably.
• 

  alcyone

  As to promises that did not turn out equated to lies, whenever someone throws one of them at me, I say: "Oh, we changed that.

  They would not equate to lies normally, but in case you claim you are the sole God's communication channel and you require absolute obedience, then they do. Deuteronomy 18,20-22 also would not apply to an Israelite who said "I think tomorrow there will be a storm" and the storm did not come. But in case somebody said "I am God's channel and in YHWH name I say tomorrow..." then it applied.

  And you know well, there is 0% prediction success rate for the GB interpretations. How can they then dare to claim they are the God's channel?

  You completely ignore misquotes and manipulations WTBTS use. Are they not lies?
  

  The Witness world does its best to be Bible based and thus is 180 degrees from the non-Witness world in which Christianity will surely end up the loser.

  Claim without proof. Blood policy not based on Bible, shunning not based, in the past organ transplant ban was not based too, civilian service ban too, ...
  
• 

  OUTLAW

  Let’s face it - many of Jehovah’s Witnesses are nuts, but none are liars.....Tom Harley

  Your own words betray you, although you got the nuts part right..
  

  As to promises that did not turn out equated to lies, whenever someone throws one of them at me, I say: "Oh, we changed that." And why not? It's not a piece of cake looking into the future .....Tom Harley

  In general, literature carts are well-received.......Tom Harley
  
  

  Everyone must admit I've been a good boy, unless the mere representation of the other side is to be a bad boy. I have not insulted, or if I have, only a little.....Tom Harley
  

  You`re not a truthful person Tom, most likely you`re incapable of it....

  That`s what happens when you`re part of a corrupt organization..

  The WBT$/JW Cult..
  
• 

  Tom Harley

  The 'God's channel' can be seen in deeds, as much of more so than in words, and most here fail to appreciate the deeds, or even think that they are evil. It is seen in the representative fact of the 900 languages, nobody else having more than five, and thus taking Christ's commission to preach good news not very seriously, if at all. When you take your car to the mechanic, do you go to the garage that has equipped itself with every modern tool? Or do you go to the one content to operate with duct tape, vice-grips, and WD-40?

  I suspect you will go to the first one, and you may not even think to check with the BBB for former complaints. This is perhaps unwise, for there are some there. But even that is not a deal-breaker. It is just something you possibly could have checked out before, and perhaps did in the year you had noticing that your car needed maintenence and getting to know and study with the guys at the shop. There, the seven Garage Owners made themselves known from the start - they did hide behind the stack of tires, only to spring out when you dropped your car off.

  Someone here said that the money 'always went to Bethel.' Of course it always went to Bethel. What - does he imagine it was fired with a cannon into heaven? The point is, not that they recieved money, but what did they do with it. Generally speaking, most Witneses will agree that they have put it to excellent use, building an infrastructure to support the spreading of the Bible's message that is unrivaled.

  And C'mon! What is it with Outlaw, who says most likely I am incapable of being truthful, even as he routinely taunts and assaults me? You think it is easy for me to apply the appropriate Proverb?
• 

  OUTLAW

  What is it with Outlaw, who says most likely I am incapable of being truthful.....TH

  You make it easy Tom..

  All I have to do, is quote your conflicting posts..

  Then we watch Tom, beat the crap out of Tom.......LOL!!

  
• 

  pale.emperor

  Tom, I'm bewildered at your reasoning. 900 languages does not mean it's the truth. Any cult with free labour and members around the world could do that.

  Changing doctrine IS a big deal. Those faithful witnesses who died for want of an organ transplant simply because Fred Franz said it was cannibalism have families that are still suffering from doctrinal blunders like that.
• 

  alcyone

  The 'God's channel' can be seen in deeds, as much of more so than in words, (...)
  

  It is seen in the representative fact of the 900 languages, ...
  

  What is then boundary between words and deeds? # of languages in which the words are said does not change the fact they are still words. That is meaning of the God's channel - to communicate words from God. In this case words are deeds.

  If you were not JW, would the number of languages convince you to summit your life to the org? Even if you knew no prediction had came true?

  And what in case there will be other organization with more languages? Will you then leave the JW?

  I fully respect your decision, but the fact you presented does not convince me the GB is the God's sole channel. I will not go to a mechanic fully equipped with modern tools who has 0% success rate in repairs.
  
• 

  sparky1

  "The things Sparky1 relates I attribute mostly to backbiting and gossip, which happens anywhere." - Tom Harley

  "........do not try to interpret my comments based on your own personal narrative." - Sparky1

  Thanks for not respecting my request. To me it shows a lot about your personal character and attitude towards others.

  "Personal stories you do not weigh in on because you know you are seeing only a tip of an iceberg." - Tom Harley

  You should take your own advice. Again, your character is showing. You know nothing at all about the events that have transpired in my life or my experiences at Bethel and yet you feel you have a right to assign meaning to them. I have read some of your 'musings' on your blog tomsheepandgoats.com and I am not impressed with your 'humble-bragging' and false self deprecating attitude.

  I think OUTLAW has you pegged pretty well. However, I hope that you keep posting here and not leave on account of him. Your self-righteous pontificating is providing me some levity in my otherwise boring day.
  

  P.S.: In case you are interested, an Elder at Bethel lied to my face about something I said and this was done in the presence of another Elder. No gossiping or backbiting at all. He flat out LIED right out in the open.
  
• 

  TD

  As to promises that did not turn out equated to lies, whenever someone throws one of them at me, I say: "Oh, we changed that."

  And why not?
  

  Because there are clear instances where that would be a falsehood.
  

  In 1935, for example there was a convention in Washington DC, which people known at the time as "Jonadabs" were invited to attend. After having been asked to stand up, those people were told clearly and unequivocally that they were the, "Great Multitude" of Revelation.
  

  That was nearly 82 years ago and those people were not children. Since the great crowd survives the great tribulation, it is clear in retrospect that the "Jonadabs" in 1935 were not even "prospective" members of the great crowd, given the fact that you have zero prospect of surviving an event you will never live to see.
  

  And please don't say, "We changed that." You haven't. You may not even be able to.

  An entire class of Christians who attain neither of the two salvations that JW's believe the Bible holds out for Christians would be a theological problem of epic proportions.
  
• 

  StephaneLaliberte

  Tom Harley – You seem to be going in every directions throwing ideas that most of us have heard of.

  These ideas are often used in congregational talks and watchtower publications where rhetorical questions, examples and terminologies make them appear unquestionable; even blatantly obvious! Quite frankly, that is why most of us, at one time, accepted these ideas as well. We were confident that they originated from God, or, for the very least, very intelligent and honest people.

  And yet, in time, we have experienced a crisis of conscience that led us to view things differently.

  For instance, your line of thought seems to be that despite its flaws, the organization has God’s backing and this is demonstrated by its deeds. This concept has been used so often by the Organisation that most of us took it for granted as well. Preaching work in hundreds of languages and countries. Keeping the organization clean through disfellowshipping. A spiritual family that extends all over the world. Separate from the world through political neutrality, not participating in pagan holidays and with elevated values. And finally, a significant amount of time of every JW is dedicated to worship (meetings, personal study, prayer, convention, construction projects).

  These are all self-explanatory fruits. Or are they? Take a moment and ask yourself: Are these really part of the fruit as understood by Jesus when he talked to his disciples? Did he expect to have an organization such as the watchtower to manage the faith of all his disciples?

  Jesus spent most of his time denouncing the hypocrisy of religious leaders and urging his fellow man to follow higher morals. He kept denouncing those who thought were thoroughly educated in the scriptures and yet, were missing the point entirely.

  “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves. (Mt 23:15).

  Imagine for an instant that you were in fact, one of the Pharisee who heard these words. How would you have reacted? Would you have rejected this? What would have been your arguments and thought process? Would any of these things sound similar to what leads you to believe that this statement does not apply to you?

  The Pharisee stood and began to pray these things to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like everyone else—extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give the tenth of all things I acquire.’ (Luke 18:11)

  While preaching, talking to one another, and gathering at meetings and conventions, this is exactly what Jehovah’s witnesses (and many religions) do. They denounce how bad everyone around them are and reassure one another of how good they are by being part of their group and talking about it. Why would this apply to the Pharisee and not the Jehovah's Witnesses?

  In Mark 2:15-17, Jesus was criticized for eating with tax collectors and sinners.

  Who were the sinners? How could they be identified as such? Would it be appropriate for a brother to be seen eating at restaurants or offering hospitality to worldly people on a regular basis? Would he be fit for privileges in the congregation?

  Now, you will try to immediately dismiss such ideas away and find arguments to lead you back in the safety of your solid, unshakable faith. However, I urge you to meditate on these passages for at least a week. Try to ask questions from as many angles as you can.
  
  And what if these things were actually the foundation of what it means to be a christian?