by setfreefinally 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
So now we've gone from "can God exist outside time" to "why does He allow suffering"? I take it, then, that you guys have conceded that it's possible for him to exist outside time?
As to why He would allow suffering... I dunno. When I have the answer to that, I'll let you know. Yes I reckon it would have to be possible that God exists outside of time but not without majoy problems to overcome. SFF
Setfree,
What if every thing was so easy to do and you had the power to do anything well with, no training, no effortI don't think so.Kind of like God then eh?
I mean after all God did come to Earth as a human, born helpless, into a middleclass family, had to have his diapers changed, grew up, had a difficult ministry, and was put to death on a cross. And who really know who many times he did this for other intelligent life in our universe, not to mention other universes.
I mean after all God did come to Earth as a human, born helpless, into a middleclass family, had to have his diapers changed, grew up, had a difficult ministry, and was put to death on a cross. And who really know who many times he did this for other intelligent life in our universe, not to mention other universes.
Doesn't that idea make the whole thing seem completely absurd? A god who creates prolifically but is so bad at it that he routinely has to suffer and die (even if it's only pretend) to fix the mess he keeps creating. Why wouldn't he just use his omnipotence to do it right the first time?
I think therefore in your reality, we have a very good chance of a class-action sute against god. As he could see the future and designed us, all of the problems are down to him. He's a divine being, surely he could have designed humans so they still had freewill and didn;t have the design problems.
You'll probably find plenty of lawyers to take the case.
Everything we know about God comes from the Bible. The Bible says that no man can look upon God's face and live but apparently one can look upon God from behind very briefly and survive, as Moses did with the result that his face literally glowed and scared the hell out of everyone else. The Bible also says that God had no beginning and has no end therefore God was here for eternity before the universe came to be and will be here for eternity.
Unfortunately the Bible is a collection of books written over a few thousand years by primitive men who probably had no real concept of infinity and no real understanding of time or the universe and then those books were edited into the Bible we have today by a bunch of ignorant superstitious men who also gave us the Inquisition and enjoyed burning those they considered "witches" alive. Therefore the information about God in the Bible is at least somewhat questionable.
Not to say that He doesn't exist though. Hopefully humanity will one day find out for sure one way or the other. On a lighter note if it turns out he's some advanced being from the Pleaides.......well that's really gonna suck.
Mike.
Funky,
Doesn't that idea make the whole thing seem completely absurd? A god who creates prolifically but is so bad at it that he routinely has to suffer and die (even if it's only pretend) to fix the mess he keeps creating. Why wouldn't he just use his omnipotence to do it right the first time?
I think it could be absurd, or it could be true, we really don't know the full reason for evil in the world. There quite reasonably could be an infinite number of scenerios as to why there is evil, and suffering in the world. I don't see anything in the Bible that gives an absolute answer. The "story" of Job never really answers this question, it only gives different points of veiw. BTW I think the "story"(inspired story), of Job purposefully leaves the question begging for an answer. I am of the opinion that God can not explaine it in its entirety to us very limited intelligent creatures and have it make sense, we don't have the comprehension needed at this time. I'm convinced however that he has benevolent reasons, that will work no real "lasting" hardship on us, in fact his going though what he did on earth should tell us that he isn't asking us to do anything he himself won't do, he is the "way" that we should follow.
Well, of course god could exist without time, as he can exist without water or air.
As well as considering this possibility, why not consider some other equally valid possibilities.
1 Can there not be a god?
2 Can god have evolved?
3 Could god be growing?
4 Might god be us, literally?
5 Could god be everything?
SS
I think it could be absurd, or it could be true, we really don't know the full reason for evil in the world.
Yes it could be true, but if true would be utterly absurd. For an omnipotent being to be as incompetent as you describe would be an absurdity.
There quite reasonably could be an infinite number of scenerios as to why there is evil, and suffering in the world.
Yes, so why out of all the available options do you pick one of the most unlikely?
I don't see anything in the Bible that gives an absolute answer. The "story" of Job never really answers this question, it only gives different points of veiw.
One point of view it gives is that God is quite happy to let the devil do whatever he likes, just for a bet.
BTW I think the "story"(inspired story), of Job purposefully leaves the question begging for an answer. I am of the opinion that God can not explaine it in its entirety to us very limited intelligent creatures and have it make sense, we don't have the comprehension needed at this time. I'm convinced however that he has benevolent reasons, that will work no real "lasting" hardship on us, in fact his going though what he did on earth should tell us that he isn't asking us to do anything he himself won't do, he is the "way" that we should follow.
Why are you convinced of this when you have no evidence? Why do you think there must be a reason which we're not capable of understanding? If this is the case, are you saying it's impossible for an omnipotent god to explain things to our satisfaction? Even if so, why are the explanations he does give so primitive and childish. Shouldn't he at least attempt to give us the most complex explanation we'll be able to handle instead of the risible nonsesnse about a snake and an apple?
It’s amazing how some people provide the answers to their own questions. Some are able to do it all on their own, and some just need a little assist.
Setfreefinally said: Some say God exists outside of time and space therefore he can predict the future.
Lets just break that statement down into its essential components:
God exists outside of time, or God exists where time is not, further distilled and purified to read God exists where no time exists, and as a last refinement; at no time did God exist.
Now lets look at the other part of Setfree’s statement asserting that God exists not only out of the realm of time, but also beyond the realm of space. Or put another way, God resides in a place outside of our existence, further refined to read God is found someplace we can’t go, and as a last refinement, God is no place to be found.
So there we have it, at no time did God exist, and he is no place to be found.
So Setfree, I have a question, did you realize you were an atheist before you made this post?
Don’t take offense, just musing with you.
Freeman
Funky,
I think it could be absurd, or it could be true, we really don't know the full reason for evil in the world.Yes it could be true, but if true would be utterly absurd. For an omnipotent being to be as incompetent as you describe would be an absurdity.
Well to someone who has a negative opinion of him it would seem absurd, "if this were true". I'm sure that before they discovered gravity the idea of the Earth being a spinning spere with people living on the side and bottom without falling off seemed egually absurd.
There quite reasonably could be an infinite number of scenerios as to why there is evil, and suffering in the world.Yes, so why out of all the available options do you pick one of the most unlikely?
It only seems most unlikely to you, not me, or else I never would have used it.
I don't see anything in the Bible that gives an absolute answer. The "story" of Job never really answers this question, it only gives different points of veiw.One point of view it gives is that God is quite happy to let the devil do whatever he likes, just for a bet.
Thats one way you can looked at it, or you might veiw it as an inspired story, beatifully poetic, that shows there is more to sufferings than meets the eye of mortal man, and that we should all seek to be pateint like Job and not ascribe evil to God. Job in the "story" BTW is never told about the "heavenly scene" found in the narative. In the "story" he is left in the dark "the Satan's"(not the devil specifically) claim in heaven before God.
BTW I think the "story"(inspired story), of Job purposefully leaves the question begging for an answer. I am of the opinion that God can not explaine it in its entirety to us very limited intelligent creatures and have it make sense, we don't have the comprehension needed at this time. I'm convinced however that he has benevolent reasons, that will work no real "lasting" hardship on us, in fact his going though what he did on earth should tell us that he isn't asking us to do anything he himself won't do, he is the "way" that we should follow.Why are you convinced of this when you have no evidence? Why do you think there must be a reason which we're not capable of understanding?
I could say the same about you too. Why are you so convinced there is not a God who created everything? You can not use "natural science" to prove or disprove God existance, true natural science can not speak with authority on this issue since it is beyond its domain. The reason I suggest for our incapability to understand God's "complete reason" for the allowance of evil, is that we can not see or know everything, therefore if the reasons are very complicated, and involves things we have no comprehension of then of coarse we would not be capable of understanding presently.
If this is the case, are you saying it's impossible for an omnipotent god to explain things to our satisfaction?
Yes and no. He can explain things but not completely, as to whether we are satisfied, that is very subjective isn't it.
Even if so, why are the explanations he does give so primitive and childish. Shouldn't he at least attempt to give us the most complex explanation we'll be able to handle instead of the risible nonsesnse about a snake and an apple?
Yes God has to stoop really quite low to comunicate to us in terms that we can grasp. From the Bible I grasp that God speaks in concepts and terms that are understandable to the people "at that time" The first couple of chapters of Genesis are given to a very primative people, and it is in "story form" it is not a scientific account written in our modern terminolgy. The purpose is to show the Isrealites "there is only one true God" and he created everything. This was a hard lesson to learn for them since they worshipped many different Gods of nature, river god, frog god, etc... Genesis 1-3 is not to be read as a historical scientific account of creation written with modern concepts, if you do you will come away with some pretty weird (fundy) and undefensible veiws that don't follow what we now know. That is not the agenda of the Bible writer, I say the Genesis is like a preamble to the Law coventant similar to other ancient documents where a King is establishing who he is(God is creater sons of men the creatures).
Well to someone who has a negative opinion of him it would seem absurd, "if this were true". I'm sure that before they discovered gravity the idea of the Earth being a spinning spere with people living on the side and bottom without falling off seemed egually absurd.
That's a complete non sequitur. The god you described as both omnipotent and incomptetent is an absurd construction but may exist in some realm of reality we're not aware of. (For future reference, the underlined part of the previous sentence is always implied when I'm talking about the non-existence of gods and other supernatural entities.)
It only seems most unlikely to you, not me, or else I never would have used it.
OK then, so why does it seem likely to you that the existence of suffering is caused by an omnipotent god who keeps making creatures who fail his tests?
Thats one way you can looked at it, or you might veiw it as an inspired story, beatifully poetic, that shows there is more to sufferings than meets the eye of mortal man, and that we should all seek to be pateint like Job and not ascribe evil to God. Job in the "story" BTW is never told about the "heavenly scene" found in the narative. In the "story" he is left in the dark "the Satan's"(not the devil specifically) claim in heaven before God.
OK fine, I can view it as a nice story, as long as you're not claiming it has any connection to reality.
Why are you so convinced there is not a God who created everything?
Because if there is, he made such a terrible job of it that I would have to doubt his abilities to create anything. The only thing he seems to be any good at is hiding his existence. I'm sure you're also fairly convinced that there are no carnivorous green rabbits living on the far side of the moon, despite having no evidence.
You can not use "natural science" to prove or disprove God existance, true natural science can not speak with authority on this issue since it is beyond its domain.Yes. It's beyond the domain of natural science because it deals with things that can't be observed or measured, in other words things we have no reason to believe in.
The reason I suggest for our incapability to understand God's "complete reason" for the allowance of evil, is that we can not see or know everything, therefore if the reasons are very complicated, and involves things we have no comprehension of then of coarse we would not be capable of understanding presently.But there's been no attempt to give a complicated reason, only simplistic ones that are easily refuted. If there was something in the Bible (or wherever) that I couldn't shoot full of holes but couldn't understand either, then maybe you'd have a point. As it is, it just seems like a flimsy excuse for your god's inaction.
The first couple of chapters of Genesis are given to a very primative people, and it is in "story form" it is not a scientific account written in our modern terminolgy. The purpose is to show the Isrealites "there is only one true God" and he created everything. This was a hard lesson to learn for them since they worshipped many different Gods of nature, river god, frog god, etc...What evidence do you have for this assertion (other than the fact that the Genesis account is clearly unscientific)? Everything in the Bible indicates that the events described actually happened. There is a complete chronology from Adam to Jesus. Adam and Eve are referred to several times by other Biblical characters as if they were real people. And why did the one true god need to correct primitive people about his nature? Why didn't he just tell them of his existence before they invented all their false gods?
Genesis 1-3 is not to be read as a historical scientific account of creation written with modern concepts, if you do you will come away with some pretty weird (fundy) and undefensible veiws that don't follow what we now know. That is not the agenda of the Bible writer, I say the Genesis is like a preamble to the Law coventant similar to other ancient documents where a King is establishing who he is(God is creater sons of men the creatures)That's not how it appears to be written. You need to provide some evidence if you want me to believe something like that. The fact that it is unscientific doesn't necessarily mean that it was written as an analogy, more likely that it was written by somebody with no understanding of science.
