DOES SATAN EXIST?

by Dansk 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    There are a couple of ideas on this. One is that Satan is a corruption of the Egyptian god Set who murdered the god Osiris and was avenged by Horus.

    The second is found in the religion of the Persian Zoroaster, who professed the good god Ahura Mazda who was at war with the evil god Angra Mainyu, later known as Arhiman. The Zoroastrian concept of hell is almost a mirror image of the Jewish hell, and Zoroaster's religion even had the concept of a purgatory, as well as a last judgement.

    Since the Israelites were held in Assyrian captivity, it's very likely that they were introduced to the dualistic nature of Zoroastrian solar worship and more than a few scholars feel that much of Judaism was lifted from Persian influences.

    Since coming out of Watchtower and realising we've been fed a load of baloney I have been conducting my own research, including to the very roots of the Bible. I don't believe Satan exists. As a Bible scholar friend puts it: "He is a manufactured scare tactic, as is his domain and the claim of eternal damnation, in order to keep the priests and the religions they offer as the only way to 'salvation'. It keeps the priests in business. The concept of a devil arises from the idea that God is ultimately good and can therefore not be evil, so there must be another anti-God element to explain the evil in the world - enter Arhiman, Set or Satan. Apparently the scare tactic still works as millions still believe in the fires of hell and that the Devil's gonna get you if you don't watch out. "

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    The idea that Satan is a myth created by religion to keep their adherents "in line" is making more and more sense to me.

    The way that JW's use Satan is different than that explained by the Bible scholar friend you cited. Satan is there to tempt you all day and all night, and if you falter, you don't go to a hellfire, but instead you are delivered into Jehovah's wrathful own hands! An interesting TWIST on the old legend if I do say so myself!

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    Hi Gopher,

    The way that JW's use Satan is different than that explained by the Bible scholar friend you cited.

    You're absolutely right, of course, and as you infer, the JWs use the "scare tactics" of saying Jehovah will punish you if you "follow Satan", i.e. go against Jehovah. My friend is not conversant with JW dogma and his quote is based on his knowledge/experience with the usual Christian denominations.

    Cheers,

    Dansk

  • seedy3
    seedy3

    Of course Satan exists, he is the reason little babies die at an early age, he is the reason that Hitler existed (and others like him), he's the reason we are tempted with ludeness, money, crime, ect ect.

    Funny how people want to put the immoral parts of human life on a mythological personage, when it really boils down to just who these people are. Satan is not the reason we make mistakes, he is not the reason bad things happen to us. I find most of the time, we make our own problems and want a "Scape Goat" to blame it on. Oh yeah that's another one, "Scape Goats" an old Hebrew practice adopted from the Canaanites.

    Seedy

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    I just received this from a good friend who studies ancient Bible history. I find it extremely interesting so thought I'd share:

    "Ha-Satan seems to have originally meant something like "the contender" and was associated with God (perhaps in the idea of Israel's struggle with God when he changed his name from Jacob). In the earliest period Yahweh was a divinity like most in the Ancient Near East who was neither Good nor Evil - but rather a force to be reckoned with. Traces of this time remain (eg "I am a jealous God"). At this time Satan was not especially demonic.

    Satan seems to have become a devil as a result of the "problem of evil" associated with an omnipotent God who is also "all good" and "all loving". As the Greeks observed - either he is all good and all loving, and because evil exists, he is not omnipotent - or he is all powerful, but not all loving and all good. The demonic nature of Satan grew with Iranian influence. They were the first to suggest two "gods" (i.e. Ahuru) - one all good and loving (Ahuru Mazda = Wise Lord) and the other "Satanic" (i.e. Ahuru Mainyu = Ahriman). It is generally accepted that Satan's metamorphosis into a devil began at this time. He has certainly been useful in the Manichaean heresy of
    Christianity and has been useful in persecuting Christians of other sects than one's own (or of pagans and non- Christians)."

    Dansk

  • Water
    Water

    Interesting thoughts Dansk. Thanks. I will have to ponder on this subject for awhile.

    Water

  • seedy3
    seedy3

    Dansk,

    I have read much of what you mentioned before. I read an article some time back that made the point, that Satan in the earliest parts of Hebrew beliefs was not an evil dieity, but was more or less the prosecuter/tester of humans for God himself. Quite different then the Satan of modern jeudeo/christian/muslim beliefs. He was not the enemy of God, but his assistant.

    Seedy

  • SpunkyChick
    SpunkyChick

    Dansk - Thanks for the interesting info about Satan...very interesting indeed!

  • Simon
    Simon
    Since the Israelites were held in Assyrian captivity

    erm? When was this? Do you have any evidence? It is a story in the bible which is a faked history ... more of a propaganda to rally the troops and justify some of the things they did (like claims to land and so on)

    Now, the followers of the Egyption ruler who dabbled with the "new religion" (for them) and moved the capital out to some city he built in the dessert fled and some of them may have ended up in Isreal and become the Essenes. Their teachings certainly show up in the dead sea scrolls. These are the ones never mentioned in the bible unlike the Pharisses and Sadduces, who lived at the same time and same location as Christ / Apostles (allegedly) and may have had an influence on things.

    I'm a bit rusty on all the details of this but I remember a programme on about it that seemed to make sense and have it in a book somewhere.

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    Simon,

    :Since the Israelites were held in Assyrian captivity

    erm? When was this? Do you have any evidence? It is a story in the bible which is a faked history ... more of a propaganda to rally the troops and justify some of the things they did (like claims to land and so on)

    Well, actually, Ancient Bible History scholars and archaeologists agree that the Israelites (ten-tribe kingdom, Samaria) were captured, taken away and dispersed:

    http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/ASSYRIA.HTM

    The greatest period of conquest occurred between 883 and 824, under the monarchies of Ashurnazirpal II (883-859 BC) and Shalmeneser III (858-824 BC), who conquered all of Syria and Palestine, all of Armenia, and, the prize of prizes, Babylon and southern Mesopotamia. The Assyrian conquerors invented a new policy towards the conquered: in order to prevent nationalist revolts by the conquered people, the Assyrians would force the people they conquered to migrate in large numbers to other areas of the empire. Besides guaranteeing the security of an empire built off of conquered people of different cultures and languages, these mass deportations of the populations in the Middle East, Mesopotamia, and Armenia, turned the region into a melting pot of diverse cultures, religions, and languages. Whereas there would be little cultural contact between the conquered and the conquerors in early Mesopotamian history, under the Assyrians the entire area became a vast experiment in cultural mixing. It was the Assyrian monarch, Sargon II (721-705 BC), who first forcefully relocated Hebrews after the conquest of Israel, the northern kingdom of the Hebrews. Although this was a comparatively mild deportation and perfectly in line with Assyrian practice, it marks the historical beginning of the Jewish diaspora. This chapter in the Jewish diaspora, however, never has been really written, for the Hebrews deported from Israel seem to have blended in with Assyrian society and, by the time Nebuchadnezzar II conquers Judah (587 BC), the southern kingdom of the Hebrews, the Israelites deported by Sargon II have disappeared nameless and faceless into the sands of northern Mesopotamia.

    http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Lachish_Lakhish.html

    13 Now in the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah did Sennacherib king of Assyria come up against all the fenced cities of Judah and took them

    14 And Hezekiah King of Judah sent to the King of Assyria to Lachish, saying, I have offended; return from me: that which thou puttest on me will I bear. And the King of Assyria appointed unto Hezekiah King of Judah three hundred talents of silver and thirty talents of gold

    The city of Lachish was an impressive fortress. It was double walled with a four entry gate that is larger than any other gate complex yet found in Syria- Palestine . It had a Palace Fort in the center which is also the largest of it kind ever discovered in Israel . The walls of this fort were 30 x 30 http://home.uleth.ca/geo/htmjoel/ http://home.uleth.ca/geo/htmjoel/

    The city was destroyed by the Assyrian Monarch Sennacherib (reigned 705 - 681 BC) while he was on a campaign to suppress rebellion in the Assyrian client states and their allies. He beseiged it and then destroyed it, packing all the population off to Nineveh to be slaves and servants.

    An account of this siege is given on some slabs found in the chambers of the Palace of Koyunjik (Nineveh) which are now in the British Museum. The inscription has been deciphered as follows:

    Sennacherib, the mighty King, King of the country of Assyria, sitting on the throne of judgment before the city of Lachish: I gave permission for its slaughter .....

    http://www.zeal.com/exit.jhtml;jsessionid=DW4NAKIDAJGSNLAQQA2WDNFMCCAG0YNN?cid=923569&wid=60111724&so=&xr=/category/preview.jhtml%3Fcid%3D923569

    The Jewish Diaspora ("diaspora" ="dispersion, scattering") had begun long before the Romans had even dreamed of Judaea. When the Assyrians conquered Israel in 722, the Hebrew inhabitants were scattered all over the Middle East; these early victims of the dispersion disappeared utterly from the pages of history.

    http://cbia.israelite.info/Onlinestudies_files/TwoHouses.htm

    The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia continues, "tombstones were discovered, dating from the 4th to 5th centuries, one of them bearing an inscription in Aramaic." (VIII:26) Aramaic was the language of the region of Halah and Habor, where Assyria settled many of the captive Israelites. Several of these tombstones, from a Hebrew graveyard in the Crimea, north of the Caucasus, were translated in the Transactions of the Society of Biblical Archaeology in 1874. One read, "This is the tombstone of BUKI, the son of Isaac the priest; may his rest be in Eden, at the time of the salvation of Israel. In the year 702 of the years of our exile." This tombstone dates to 6 A.D., during the time of Christ.

    http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00ve0

    The city of Lachish was destroyed by the Assyrian army during Sennacherib’s campaign against the Kingdom of Judah in 701 BCE. The destruction was total; the buildings were burned to the ground and the inhabitants exiled. The Assyrian campaign, during the reign of King Hezekiah, and the encampment of the Assyrian army at Lachish are described in detail in the Bible. (2 Kings 18:14-17; 2 Chronicles 32:9) The conquest of Lachish is depicted in monumental stone reliefs found at Sennacherib’s palace at Ninveh, providing a rare contemporary "photograph" of the battle and conquest. These relief-images of the Assyrian attack have been confirmed by archeological evidence at the site: the attack on Lachish was launched from the southwest; the attackers built a siege ramp against the slope of the mound, which according to calculation contained some 15,000 tons of stones and earth! The ramp was covered with plaster to allow the Assyrian battering ram to be moved up to the city wall and breach it. The city’s defenders constructed a counter-ramp inside the city, thus raising the city wall, which forced the Assyrians to raise the height of their ramp in order to overcome the city’s new defenses. The fierceness of the battle is attested to by the remains of weapons, scales of armor, hundreds of slingstones and arrowheads.

    Now, the followers of the Egyptian ruler who dabbled with the "new religion" (for them) and moved the capital out to some city he built in the dessert fled and some of them may have ended up in Israel and become the Essenes. Their teachings certainly show up in the dead sea scrolls. These are the ones never mentioned in the bible unlike the Pharisees and Sadduces, who lived at the same time and same location as Christ / Apostles (allegedly) and may have had an influence on things.

    The Egyptian ruler (Pharaoh) was Akenhaten. The first reference to the Essenes comes from Josephus, writing about the death of Antigonus in 103 B.C. Where they came from is not known. It is most probable that they descended from the Hasidim of pre-Hasmonean times who aligned with Judas Maccabbee against Antiochus Epiphanies IV about 170 B.C.

    I'm a bit rusty on all the details of this but I remember a programme on about it that seemed to make sense and have it in a book somewhere.

    I'll say you're rusty. You remember a programme but can't give its title, it "seemed" to make sense and had it in a book "somewhere".

    It is a story in the bible which is a faked history ... more of a propaganda to rally the troops and justify some of the things they did (like claims to land and so on)

    Absolute nonsense! If you are going to dispute the deportation of the Jews from Samaria by the Assyrians you'll argue against ANYTHING.

    Dansk

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