Hi, Monkey-
You state:
but just to address Jeremiah Lee .. I am Pagan and seeming as most things Pagan and Homosexual Pre-date your religion I will stay right where I am .. in happiness :)
From a secular standpoint, yes, paganism precedes the manifestation of Christianity. Otherwise, Rev13:8. In any case, the reason I made a comment in this thread, is because I noted you had and still have a skewed view of Christianity. Not your fault, I believe, as you were a JW. You may even concur with that as being the reason (?). One example being, "God doesn't listen to the wicked". True, but understood by yourself (the JWs?) in the wrong sense. What is the nauance? Begs the question, how does a sinner (i.e. the wicked) repent? I'll leave it at that for now.
Hi, SanJ-
You stated:
I would like to respond to this statement by Jeremiah, if I may:
While I appreciate your tolerance of homosexuals and your enlightened realization that other "sins" in the Bible commonly overlooked by religious zealots are of equal magnitude, I don't think the issue is so much the mediation of Jesus Christ as it is the tolerance (or lack thereof) in the Christian congregation.
You're right. However, I am assuming the elders treatment of Josh is what affected his current view of God. Hence my comments last post.
I find it interesting that Jesus Christ himself never mentioned homosexuality. If it was of such huge importance to the ancients, then why would Jesus not have spoken of it?
There are quite a few specific sins Christ didn't make mention of. However, it's patent that Christ advocated the Mosaic Law. One of those laws being contra homosexuality. The Pauline epistles witness to it's sinfulness as well. Paul, being set apart by Christ Himself.
If one is a true follower of Jesus, wouldn't one be a follower of his words "I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill", therefore doing away with the ancient condemnations of, for example, men shaving their beards, the wearing of garments made of two different type of cloth, etc.. (All of which, if violated, were to exact severe punishment.)
Christ did fufill the OT Law, perfectly. This is why being IN Him is so pertinent to our salvation. However, He didn't fufill the law so that we could freely break it (Rom6). He fulfilled the Law so that IN Him we may not fall under it's condemnation.
For one to say "you have to stop being a homosexual TO BE a Christian" is placing the cart before the horse. Many people will tell you this and I think it does a good deal of damage. It causes those who are gay to reject Christianity as impossiblity as far as they are concerned. Contrary to the opinion of those who state what I have paraphrased above, once a person places faith in Jesus Christ, a renewal will take place. I, personally, struggle with sin all the time. However, I don't WANT to sin. I loathe sin. I hate this cursed flesh I'm living in as of now. I look forward to the days when I am resurrected in a new body conformed to the image of Christ.
Having said that, it would seem that many modern-day followers of Jesus are more interested in Paul's words (which are conveniently mistranslated),
Could you give me a cite? I think I know what you're alluding to but I'd be interested in hearing the argument along with it as well.
rather than that of Jesus himself. Therefore, were m0nk3y, myself, or any other gay person to accept the Christ as savior, the next logical step would be worship. Most "born-again" denominations would have a hard time, if not find it impossible, to accept a gay member in their midst. I could not in clear conscience become a member of a denomination that condemns me. I did that once as a Jehovah's Witness. That experience taught me that I cannot live the life of a hypocrite.
If your intent to become a Christian is genuine then they do not have the right to judge. My congregation would have no trouble in the least accepting you. I have to agree, there are too many "Sunday Christians" out there today.
I appreciate the good intentions of those who have come to accept the Christ as their mediator. Their wish that gay people join the ranks of the "saved" is genuine and loving. However, until their religious leaders stop using the Bible as a weapon to bash gay people over the head, I cannot in good conscience join those ranks. My spirituality, whatever form it takes, will remain private.
The scriptures should be used as a tool to convict a person of their sin, no matter what form it takes. Not as a means of ridiculing them. I can't help but think of the following from John Bunyan's "The Pilgrim's Progress"
"As I walked through the wilderness of this world, I lighted on a certain place where was a Den, and I laid me down in that place to sleep: and, as I slept, I dreamed a dream. I dreamed, and behold, I saw a man clothed with rags, standing in a certain place, with his face from his own house, a book in his hand, and a great burden upon his back. I looked, and saw him open the book, and read therein; and, as he read, he wept, and trembled; and, not being able longer to contain, he brake out with a lamentable cry, saying, What shall I do?"
Once you're a Christian, you're a stone in the temple of God. From thereon there is no condemnation. God will take care of your transformation AWAY FROM sin. Learn to weed out the false teachers who *fail to teach that.
God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.
(*and I'm talking about the likes of that ridiculously asinine "God hates fags" site *sheesh*!)
