For IW: Musings on Unity, Former Posters, ex-JW DB's

by AlanF 20 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    I'm posting this with Simon's permission. I wanted to post it to IslandWoman's thread "Farkel... We Need You", but it was locked before I could post.

    I've included a bit of history of ex-JW-related Internet discussion boards, etc., that may be of interest to some people.

    On behalf of my friends, IslandWoman, I want to say thanks for your kind words. But they will not read them.

    As has been said, these folks have moved on to various places in life. A certain amount of burnout with JW nonsense is present, but in most cases they have simply moved on with life.

    I agree almost completely with you, jgnat. Except that there never were any "stars" on Simon's board. Only people who were particularly mouthy and unafraid -- sometimes wrongly -- to express their opinions, even when such opinions got severely in other peoples' faces. The only "stars" that exist on a board such as this exist only in the minds of a few. But to borrow a JW expression, such "creature worship" is unworthy of anyone on this board. We know better.

    To expect unity from such a diverse bunch of people as ex-JWs is naive at best. Did we not all have our fill of enforced unity -- uniformity at the point of a sword -- at the hands of the Watchtower? Why yearn for, or expect, unity from people independent enough to throw off the shackles of a destructive cult?

    As for the notion that everything that needs to be said has already been said, I say: Nonsense!

    There is nothing new under the sun. The latest crop of mouthy Internet apostates largely repeats what apostates of previous 'generations' have said. But there are plenty of new things, and these need to be continually brought to light, even though the basics were stated long before even Ray Franz wrote Crisis of Conscience.

    So what? Doesn't the Watchtower itself teach "repetition for emphasis"? Does the newest crop of apostates need to stand on the shoulders of earlier ones? Don't they have the gumption and intelligence to build on what went before and come up with new material? You better believe they do!

    Perhaps the greatest scientist who ever lived, Isaac Newton, wrote to his colleague Robert Hooke in 1676: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." Here is a fine commencement speech that shows what I'm trying to convey: http://info-center.ccit.arizona.edu/~sypherd/Commen2000.html

    And of course, all of us continually benefit from the works of such giants as Ray Franz, Jim Penton, Carl Jonsson, Gary and Heather Botting, Alan Rogerson, etc. etc. etc.

    There has been a real evolution in the larger online communities of ex-JWs during the past decade. When I started posting in 1992 in the old Usenet groups talk.origins and talk.religion.misc and a few others, there were almost no ex-JWs there. There were JW critics, to be sure, but these were mostly of the traditional type, concerned mainly with doctrinal disputes over such silliness as the Trinity. But the early 1990s saw an explosion of Internet use, and along with it an explosion of ex-JWs on the Net. Interminable discussions on the various Usenet forums occasionally resulted in a JW-defender defecting. JanH was one of those.

    When JanH defected from the Watchtower organization, he was disowned by his father. He soon got in touch with the Norwegian "apostates", who at that point mainly consisted of Kent Steinhaug and Norm Hovland. They, along with a core of perhaps a dozen ex-JWs, waged war against the Watchtower on a number of Usenet forums. The forum that was the focus of their efforts changed over time. In 1994 the focus was mainly on talk.religion.misc. Due to discussions on this forum, a number of JW defenders saw the truth about "the truth" and quit.

    One such man started a website -- the first JW-oriented website I know of -- called "Associated Jehovah's Witnesses for Reform" -- AJWR -- which was a joke to him but was taken seriously by a lot of JWs. Some of the JWs who visited that early website soon started one of their own, which turned into the infamous site "H2O" (I really miss that site). In the meantime, many JW-critics gravitated towards a Usenet email-based list called "Jesus-Witnesses", which for several years produced scathing written criticisms of the Watchtower from ex-JWs and non-JWs alike. Many of the regulars on that site gravitated to H2O when it came solidly online. Another group of ex-JWs took a hint from AJWR and produced the website "Associated Jehovah's Witnesses for Reform on Blood" (AJWRB), which is alive and kicking today. Eventually, H2O ran its course, and many participants ended up here on Simon's board.

    About the beginning of 1995 an email list called "philia" was started. A lot of people who are still active in the JW-critical arena gravitated to this list, and many lasting friendships and working relationships formed. For example, many posters are familiar with Tim Campbell's website, "Beyond Jehovah's Witnesses". Tim got his start back then, and has helped countless people deal with JW issues. A site owner called DocBob also got started around that time. These guys got much of their early material from private discussions on "philia" and from the various Usenet groups.

    During this time, Kent Steinhaug started his website WatchtowerObserver.org. It eventually became the largest repository in the world for online JW-critical material. Many, many people contributed to this site. Kent remained a large thorn in the side of Watchtower for many years, even posting the text of the semi-secret elders manual "Pay Attention To Yourselves and to All the Flock". At the instigation of Watchtower he was visited by legal authorities for his trouble, but they soon saw things his way.

    Jan Haugland also started his own website, which contained scathing material on a number of subjects, including a concise criticism of the Society's ridiculous Creation book, and a concise summary of various Watchtower dates that -- without exception -- proved false.

    Norm Hovland contributed many, many articles on the stupidities of JWism over the years. His writings appear today on the website http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm which I think is a prime repository for JW-critical material. Many of my own writings also appear there. The site owner, Osarsif, has culled a number articles from H2O and Simon's board.

    The above-mentioned three Norwegians have certainly got in the faces of a lot of people on ex-JW sites. While some may bristle at the prickliness of these guys, it is also true that their "2x4 upside the head" approach has awakened many sleeping JWs. It has also awakened plenty of sleeping ex-JWs, even though the latter might not appreciate it at first.

    Uzzah, your comments about volatile things being stored together are well taken. I think that too much water has been passed for anything to change, but that's the norm for Net forums.

    What I would like to see is for new people to continue taking up the fight against Watchtower criminality and driving home to the media that JWs are an extremely destructive cult. Plenty of people on this board have already done so and will continue. Only by a continuing infusion of "new blood" into the ex-JW/'apostate'/JW-critical movement can this continue.

    On a more personal note, in the summer of 1997 my wife Julie and I had the good fortune to find ourselves able to travel to Norway for a 3-day visit with Kent, Norm, Jan and Jan's then-wife Kirsten. All I can say is that we had a blast, and that Norwegians are incredibly hospitable. We all rented a boat and tooled around the Oslo-Fiord for the better part of three days. Drank a lot of booze, too.

    For those who think ill of such people as I've mentioned in this post, you may not entirely know what you're talking about, since you only have a limited picture of them. That goes for you too, Simon. As I told you in PM, I think you ought to be more objective (said with a huge grain of salt since I know what kind of poop you have to deal with every day). But you're as human as the rest of us. As many have said before, if we all sat down in a pub and had a few pints of that wonderful English brew, a lot of past unpleasantness would be forgotten.

    AlanF

  • outoftheorg
    outoftheorg

    Thank you Alan for a very sensible, coherant, thought provoking message.

    Thanks for giving credit to those Norsk vikings.

    I knew my heritage would shine one day.

    Outoftheorg.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Insightful post, AlanF. Nostalgia is nice, but for growth I firmly believe we have to move on. As for stars, I think we all are. Still my favorite posts are the personal histories from our Newbies, when they share the drama of their personal journey. These stories have more pith than a ten-foot stack of Watchtowers.

    There are a lot of stars in the sky. More than we can count.

  • xjw_b12
    xjw_b12

    History of JW Forums 101 Interesting chronolgy. Thank you Alan.

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    Alan,

    A few more perspectives from this side of the pond.

    First, I found this board when H 20 was in it's death throes. Although I had been out for over 25 years, H20 represented an end to me feeling an oddity, that strangest of things, an ex-JW with a host of never -JW associations. Although I often talked about my experiences with my friends, only an ex would ever be able to really relate to my feelings. H20 provided a means for me to clear out the last of my dub cobwebs. That is something that I feel grateful to Rick for providing.

    There were barely 300 posters on this site when I arrived. Strangely, many of the established posters seemed to know me from H20 and went out of their way to make me feel welcome. As time went by, I realised that many persons posting were far better informed than I was. By now the board was growing at an astronomical rate, and one thing that I detected was the fear that many had of being alone and friendless when they eventually took the plunge and kissed dubdom goodbye. I decided that this was one area where I could be of use and determined to make the point that it is more than possible to rebuild a social life with new and better friends than the ones who had just disfellowshipped you. So I many of my earlier posts featured pub life and my ongoing spats with dubs who encroached on my sacred territory. Some people found my accounts to be amusing.

    I was very pleased also when the Norwegians joined the board. I'd scoured the net earlier for posts by Norman Hovland whose writings had a particular appeal for me with their biting humour and sarcasm. Eventually Norm and myself had many phone conversations and I was preparing to go to Norway to visit around the end of 2001.

    It was around this time that problems arose between the Norwegians and Simon. I never did quite work out how it all started, it was just a niggle at first that somehow refused to go away or be corrected. Gradually folks became more entrenched in their positions with the end result that Kent and Norm went off to do their own thing at Watchtower Observer. I had no idea at the time of the hostilities that were being felt by the warring parties, and urged both Norm and Kent to return to JWD. I thought that, them being so vocal and all, they would over-ride their anger and continue to post where they would get the largest readership and be of the maximum benefit to newbies. Sadly, 'twas not to be.

    I would wish that the matter could be resolved amicably. Lot's of us do. However, we're now reading posts from newbies who have hardly even heard of some of the people who have been mentioned in this thread, so maybe the torch of freedom has already been passed on as this old war fades into oblivion. Maybe those of us who feel that we're no longer "in fashion" in the ex-JW scene need to acknowledge that we've had our time and, instead, become benevolent and indulgent oldie posters rather than curmudgeonly old "has beens" clinging on to former glories.

    Englishman.

  • Brummie
    Brummie

    Hey you have to fit Randy Watters site in there somewhere. His was a cross roads for many long time JWs.

    Brummie

  • Simon
    Simon

    I personally found Randy's FreeMinds (http://www.freeminds.org/) site very helpful and more approachable than some of the more aggresively anti-JW sites when I was coming out.

    Kent, Norm and JanH and others (AlanF and Farkel for instance) have done a great deal of work and written some useful articles and I have never dismissed what they have done, nor would I. My opinion though is that personal stories and social support are more powerful than doctrinal essays because that is why the majority get into the WTS in the first place but that is just my opinion - really all angles are needed. Essays are good for confirming that the decision is correct after you've left but I really believe that it's personal accounts that get people thinking "it's not just me ... it is wrong".

    One thing I am certain of is that people should not be put on pedestals or live on past glories or be excused certain behavior because of something they once wrote. If someone is being abusive to others then I'll always try and do something about it and whether they can cooperate and continue to post or decide to storm off because they were pulled up for something is really up to them (and their ego).

    I'm not interested in any kind of limelight or recognition for running the forum but I think some do crave it or began to. Maybe this was why the conflict happened and resentment set in. At one point I think there was a definite 'gang' mentality among some people where they would attack and bully other posters who dared disagree with them to maintain their own status, obviosly this couldn't be allowed to continue and while it was difficult stamping it out, I think things are much better for it now.

    I am the administrator here because someone has to be. I'd like to be just A.N.Other poster and maybe should consider having a different alias for 'admin' work and regular posting? I think things work best when everyone is equal and there are no celebrities as it helps people feel they can contribute to the discussion and join in without being intimidated. Of course, there will always be posters that each one of us likes and looks forward to reading but on the whole I don't think anyone lauds it over (or are quickly brought down to earth if they try).

    Above all, this place is a community.

  • waiting
    waiting

    Ooooooooo, Simon,

    I remember when you use to post as Caliban over at H20 (before this place) - and a couple of times, you posted under that name over here. We caught you fast............of course, there was only about 10 of us. That British accent was sooooooo easy to spot

    And then later, when you ass was being shagged (proper British terminology I believe).......your short use of Caliban was used against you to *prove* your duplicity. lol -

    This place was a coffee shop in spirit in the beginning----- and some of us loved that. Now, it's different -----and we accept that too.

    In some ways, the forums are like real life - people come & go. Some people stay. Different generations or groups find use in different areas.

    I remember old H20'er's talking about arguing with Real JW's who would come in to defend The Truth. No JW defends The Truth now.....they just say "Well, we're no worse than those Catholics. They abuse their children too, yanno." (paraphrased).

    "As much as things change......they stay the same."

    I've only been on the net 3 yrs...............but I've learned so much! Thanks to all The Researchers!

    Btw, Alan's modesty shows through...............his site - Research on the Tower - is great. I also gravitated to Randy's and Shaun's Research. Both tremendous in their own way!

    waiting

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    I dont care what kind of an Ex JW internet Essay god anyone is, nor do I care whether 10 years ago he wrote a dozen clever essays. Especially if I havent read them. All I care about is whether a guy behaves like an asshole and How he treats me personally. If hes rotten to me, hes going into the black book of revenge until such time as payment can be collected. Very simple philosophy. I know Steinhaug ( who, incidentally, Ive barely ever addressed personally) runs a website full of information that may be of interest to ex dubs. Good on him. But the others ?? Theyre just posters on a board far as Im concerned. I see no great contributions to the betterment of mankind from them. Besides, They wouldnt come back here in a fit, unless, every time they say: " I wouldnt go back there in a fit" ( which they say every second day) they are lying. I noticed that Haugland posted recently that Simon the Pieman "concocted FALSE emails" to make Haugland look bad.

    Anyone who believes that has rocks in their head. In my experience, the person accussing others of Gross crimes is the perpetrator himself. The guy is scum.

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Hi Alan,

    I am a dreamer. Surprised? lol I think you already suspected that.:)

    I also think there is almost nothing impossible for man, as long as he wants it bad enough. A banding together of differing factions and beliefs in order to fight against a common enemy is nothing new. A co-operation between people to accomplish a common goal does not require unity of thought nor even of intent, only action.

    It will not happen here only because the individuals involved don't want it bad enough, that though is the business of those involved and not mine. I'm finished bucking here.

    Much negativity is applied to unified action or organization in the exJW community, ironically the Silentlambs march which took place last year in New York could not have happened without unity of action and organization-like leadership in the Silentlambs camp. There are pockets of working unity in the JW community and even organized activity, it's just the exJWs prefer not to call it that.

    Englishman may be right. It could be time for the next generation of exJWs to start taking the lead, but as Farkel once told me, "It is a big responsibility." I hope they have the fortitude to do as well as their predecessors.

    If you are in contact with Farkel please tell him IW shouts a loud "Hi" his way and I hope he is well.

    Take care,

    IW

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