Quesions about Jehovah

by the real truth 54 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • City Fan
    City Fan

    Neonmadman -

    Sorry I usually say which translation I quote from. The quote was from the Revised Standard Version. This translation uses the older Septaguint text which also agrees with the Dead Sea Scrolls and the phrase can be translated 'sons of God' or 'divine sons'.

    It is true that most bible translations use the Masoretic text as a starting point but the discovery of the dead sea scrolls showed that the older Septaguint was the more accurate text. You will usually find a footnote at Deut 32:8-9 in a modern translation to say this if it doesn't already translate the phrase as 'sons of God'.

    the Zondervan NIV Exhaustive Concordance lists the root word in verse 8 as yisra'el.

    That's the root word in the Masoretic text.

    The people's of the ancient middle east around the area of Ugarit thought of the divine council as the Most High God El presiding over his sons, each of whom was the patron deity of a nation. In the earliest traditions Yahweh was one of these divine sons of El and this is the idea behind the Septaguint and Dead Sea Scrolls reading of Deut 32. Later when the Talmudic Jews created the Masoretic text they were uncomfortable with the polytheism in the phrase 'according to the number of the divine sons' and changed it to read 'sons of Israel'.

    Psalms 82 also describes the old view of the divine council whilst also denouncing it.

    It seems clear to me that these are human judges and rulers

    Then why does the psalm say "you shall die like men" if the beings spoken to were men?

    God refers to them sarcastically as "gods"

    Prove it!

    For this psalm to carry the interpretation you suggest would place it at odds with the rest of the Bible

    Most of it, yes. My 'agenda' as you put it is to find out why and how the bible came to us in its present form. It is mainly monotheistic because the Deutoronomic and post exilic bible editors made it that way. But there are enough clues in archaeology, contemporary Ugaritic documents and verses such as those discussed that prove Israel was largely polytheistic and slowly developed monotheism.

    Doesn't it make more sense to understand the religion of the Hebrews consistently?

    Yes it does. And it also makes more sense when you fully understand the background of how the religion of the Hebrews developed from myths, other religions, historical and political events.

    Again, taking Deuteronomy 32:8,9 in context, we find a description of God's deliverance of Israel from Egypt. He 'divided mankind' and 'set boundaries for the people' in the sense of making a place for His people among the other nations. The other nations had to yield their place in favor of Israel, because the Israelites were God's favored people.

    Well that's the way the Talmudic writers of the Masoretic text wanted it understood. But the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septaguint show otherwise. The nations were divided among El's divine sons and Israel was Yahweh's portion.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    CF...your comments are appreciated. It does seemt he more logical approach to study the history of Jewish religion from the same perspective thazt we study all other religions, doesn't it? We have never heard a debater here argue that Hinduism or Islam suddenly appeared upon the scene fully developed theologically and texturally without any indication of it having evolved from preexisting religions. Yet this is the position that some here posit for the Jewish Faith.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    City Fan:

    Well, I have to admit that I'm wading in waters here that are a bit deep for me, since I'm not particularly familiar with the histories of the various OT manuscripts. But you have piqued my curiosity a bit:

    The people's of the ancient middle east around the area of Ugarit thought of the divine council as the Most High God El presiding over his sons, each of whom was the patron deity of a nation. In the earliest traditions Yahweh was one of these divine sons of El and this is the idea behind the Septaguint and Dead Sea Scrolls reading of Deut 32.

    I guess my first question would be as to what is the source of this information? Are there pre-Biblical Hebrew texts that are polytheistic in nature? Surely you have not concluded that all of the above must be true based solely on a reading of Deut. 32 and Psalm 82? Because both of those scriptures can be understood in a way that does not fly in the face of the rest of the Bible, and as I pointed out in my last comment, this is so even if we accept "sons of God" as the correct reading in Deut. 32.

    It seems clear to me that these are human judges and rulers

    Then why does the psalm say "you shall die like men" if the beings spoken to were men?

    Because, as I pointed out, these human rulers had arrogated godlike status to themselves. Rulers throughout history have frequently deified themselves (or been deified by their followers). Pharaohs, Roman Caesars, Japanese emperors and many others have been examples of this. Because they had exalted themselves as gods, God would humble them as the men they were. To believe otherwise puts us in the unlikely position of believing that divine "gods" were involving themselves in judging everyday matters of life and, in doing so, were perverting justice. It just makes more sense to imagine humans as doing these things, not "gods".

    Additionally, as I have pointed out, Jesus apparently understood this verse as applying to humans, not to some sort of divine beings.

    But the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septaguint show otherwise. The nations were divided among El's divine sons and Israel was Yahweh's portion.

    Am I then to understant that this teaching is to be found in the extrabiblical documents that are found among the Dead Sea Scrolls? If so, I may need to do some investigation of them. But my first reaction, if that is what you are saying, is to imagine an archaeologist of the future finding a stack of Watchtowers and a Book of Mormon packed along with several Bible translations, and concluding that all the documents were of equal value, or perhaps that everyone who believed in one of them must have believed in all the others.

    Likewise, I appreciate that early understandings of Yahweh as God must have been rather murky, since much of the revelation we have about Him now in the Bible was still future back then. That being the case, I don't find it hard to believe that some of the pre-Hebrews might have developed (or borrowed from pagan neighbors) polytheistic ideas to "fill in the gaps" of what they did not understand. Which is not to say that Biblical revelation developed from myths, but that myths were created to explain that which had not yet been revealed.

    But as I said, these are just early impressions based on what we've talked about so far. I'd be interested to know what the source of your assertions might be.

  • OHappyDay
    OHappyDay

    Is Jesus a true God or a false God?

    What does the Bible say?

    The Bible says Jesus is a god. (John 1:1; 1:18)

    Jesus said his Father is the Only True God. (John 17:3)

    Therefore, if we believe what the Bible and Jesus say, then:

    (1) Jesus is a true god.

    (2) Jehovah, the Father, is the only true God -- with the capital "G".

    Don't accuse Jehovah's Witnesses of saying that Jehovah is the only true God. That's what Jesus said. He should know.

  • bathsheba
    bathsheba

    the real truth,

    good day.

    Well, i got some bible(diff translations) with me here, hope it can help you.

    New world translation: John1:1 In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God,and the Word was a god.

    New Jerusalem Bible: In the beginning was the Word:the Word was with God and the Word was God

    New English Bible: When all things began, the Word already was, The Word dwelt with God,and what God was, the Word was.

    The New Testament by: James Moffatt :The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.

    If you want really to know, get research yourself and not only in one verse and that's it,but you got to go further.Example what does Jesus says in Revelation 3:12?

    It will be your own understanding of the verses that matters, not what others say to you.That is why personal research is important,after all each one has to carry each own load.

    Hope i answer your question. And dont worry, you are still welccome here, because here is open to any ideas, pro, against, athiest, what ever. As you go along browsing around, you will feel welcome.

    Bshba

  • Hamas
    Hamas

    Welcome to the forum, Bethsheba !!!!!!

    To find the truth is a impossible feat. What is truth ? We have the bible, and certain interpretations. We have the Quran, and certain interpretations. We have many other religious ideas and beliefs, but who can really say they know truth?

    The truth is what makes you as a person. If it gets you through the day, it is your truth. Nobody can say what truth is absolute.

    I wish you peace, my friend.

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa

    I know others on this thread have said this, but I thought I would mention it again...

    I'm gonna ask this question one more time for the Jehovah's Witnesses. Is Jesus a true God or a false God?

    There are almost NO Jehovah's Witnesses on this site! We are mostly all FORMER Jehovah's Witnesses.

    If you want to ask Jehovahs Witnesses this question, you must go to a site where there are some Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Again, almost NO Jehovah's Witnesses here! Lots of EX-Jehovah's Witness.

    Your friend and ex-JW ,

    -LisaBObeesa

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    Trying to reconcile the various sections of the bible regarding God and Jesus and their relationship is a fruitless task for the reasons that others have already pointed out. The truth is that All of Us (including Jesus) are "points of consciousness" in the one Universal Mind that God is. Jesus understood this relationship better than anyone else in the "neighborhood" and derived much knowledge and power from it. According to Jesus, we all have that same potential and power, but we have chosen to block it from our minds. "The things that I do, shall ye do also, and greater things shall ye do.........". "........but I say to you, the kingdom of God is within you" "I, of myself, can do nothing. It is Father within that doeth the works...." If you want to find God, don't waste your time looking outside in books and organizations. Look within!

  • bathsheba
    bathsheba

    Thank you Hamas.

    Nice to be feel welcome again after what i been through with the local elders. It is true that being out of th org, I tasted freedom.No one scrutinized me on what I do with their "magnifying glass" .Esp where ever i go, whom i speak with,whom i go dinner with.I am still with the brother, and we enjoy life more than ever, together.

    Now with my total freedom, i dont get scratch by my bottom, i dont scratch theirs.

    T o real truth, you are NOT searching the truth, you are searching each other's ideas here to your own satisfaction. You will only take ideas that suits you. Nothing else. But still feel free to "annoy" us here. We are all exJW here, well trained of endurance/ persecutions (by diff degree) , so we will not be worried at all what ever comes up to your accepting our posts here or not.

    Still have a nice day for you.And welcome!

    Bshba

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    I have a very important question to ask the people on this board. I don't mean to offend anyone, but is the Easter bunny more or less important than the tooth fairy? On the one hand, the Easter bunny has his own nationally recognized holiday and is affiliated with most Christian religions, but on the other hand, the tooth fairy has the ability to materialize wherever there are deciduous teeth, any day of the year. Please, I need serious answers to my very important question.

    Dedalus

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