ARE AVERAGE JWs DECEPTIVE?

by Amazing 23 Replies latest jw friends

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  Amazing

  I ask this because on this and other forums that have a large share of former JWs, our stated experiences and encounters during and after our JW membership seem to reflect that the WTS and its body of believers are most corrupt. Likewise, those never associated who read our posts may get the impression that even visiting a Kingdom Hall may result in serious negative events.

  I believe that it is important to remind everyone that the average JW is a generally good person. Most try to live good lives, act on their beliefs, and promote what they feel is the truth. Most importantly, the average JW is truly oblivious to most of the doctrinal deception, the covered-up issues of sexual molestation that takes place amongst them, and the double standards between how leaders in higher positions are treated verses the Rank & File members.

  As I noted in a post below, “I agree that the entire WTS system is deceptive from top to bottom, inside and out, through and through. I am sure that you agree, however, that all the deception is not deliberate. Rather, the deception is an outgrowth of a false premise, on which more and more layers of false thinking and self-delusion must be built. The members believe their own concepts, and relish in their own fantasies. One day, for many, reality will catch up to fantasy, and we will have many more join in the realization that the WTS is not what it appears to be.”

  The tragedy that many former JWs discover is that the WTS tapped into our desire to believe that there truly is an ultimate source of truth with a vision of reward, and maybe something worth dying for if necessary. They gave us a sense that there really was a collective of the best people, with the best of intentions, and who would not compromise what is right, who loved truth, and who God was really using to carry out his will and purpose. In a sense, the WTS was like a dear friend to which we were fully committed in what amounted to a bond not unlike marriage.

  For those JW who have left the organization due to reasons of conscience, reality finally caught up to the fantasy we held dear. As we started accepting reality we discovered that truth is often illusive, that the reward held out to us was not so near or certain, and that those who died for the sake of the organization’s policies and beliefs did so in vain. We found that the best people with the best of intentions were not in higher proportions in the organization, but that maybe there were far fewer than we hoped. We discovered that truth could not only be compromised, but that truth took a distant second place to the socio-political interests of the organization’s leaders. We found that love of truth was easily set aside for love of expediency, protection of the organization’s image, and the whims of those in power.

  I suggest that conceivably the worst part of our journey out of the WTS organization is the realization that God is NOT really using the Watch Tower Society or its professed FDS to carry out his will and purpose. And, most of all, that when push came to shove, the WTS was NEVER our friend, and the bonds we felt were really bondage chains to an organizational spiritual pimp.

  That sense of total betrayal by the organization has caused some former JWs to go as far as committing suicide. The discoveries mentioned above, combined with total shunning by friends and family was indeed too much burden to carry. The Lamb we thought we were following turned out to be a vicious wolf bent on chasing us away from the other ignorant lambs. Lastly, our limited ability to reach the average good JW with any warning, or material, or even to have closure by telling our basis for leaving causes many of us to carry with us an open wound that is very slow to heal.

  I hope that as we make comments and posts about the problems with the WTS organization, we will keep in mind the good people, the kind persons we knew, and be there for them when the walls come crashing down in an allegorical sense like they did on the poor souls at Waco, Texas.

  Simply Amazing
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  sf

  Good morning Amazing,

  Hope you got some needed rest and are doing well today.

  Above you state: > "..., those never associated who read our posts may get the impression that even visiting a Kingdom Hall may result in serious negative events".

  I say: > That's the WHOLE idea! This IS the exact URGENT impression, that at least I and I'm assuredly, others fighting this dangerous, UNPREDICTABLE kult, want to leave branded! on all who lay their eyes upon them (posts exposing major, criminal, corruption). I have abhsolutely no quams about my internet activities in bringing daily to the people of this world, news and information that WILL save their lives and the lives of their kids and other family members. ONE VISIT TO A KH IS ALL I TAKES FOR A NEGATIVE ENCOUNTER WITH THAT ORGANIZATION...ONE! Why would anyone, armed with the info they read, ever ever step foot inside a kh ever again or for the first time? "They" lurk in every crevis and every cong. What more proof does anyone need?

  Please give your granddaughter a hug and a smile from Scally...{{{}}}

  Sincerely with love, Scally (cut and paste class )
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  bigboi

  I agree sf:

  There is no doubt in my mind that the wts is full of nice ppl with good intentions. But in order to associate with pplwith good intentions, i don't think you should have to alienate yourself from society as a whole, live in a state of perpetual fear and waste valuable time living the pipe dream of some skanky old men in Brooklyn.

  Th best advice I can give to anyone who is contemplating becoming a JW is run, run like hell.

  Peace,

  Bigboi

  "..... anyone who ignores everyday reality in order to live up to an ideal will soon discover he had been taught how to destroy himself, not how to preserve himself." The Prince. Niccolo Machiavelli.
• 

  larc

  Amazing,

  I really liked your post. I think it as a very fair appraisal of the situation.

  If one reads the findings of Social Psychologists, they will find that these characteristics apply to all organizations. The group comes first, the individual is expendable. The work of Irving Janis on Groupthink is especially relevant.

  Even secular orgnizations will expell disenters, for example. Two noteworthy examples at General Motors were Ross Perot and John Delorean. Delorean wrote a book about his experience called "On A Clear Day You Can See General Motors."

  Sometimes, having an itellectual understanding of a phenomena can help reduce the emotional after effects. I know it has for me.
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  nojw86

  One time I was in service with an elders wife. She pointed out the next house where a sister and young children were sitting outside, and she said we are not supposed to talk to her, well I always the sister and our kids played together. The point is she said it with an air of evilness, instead of it coming as bible based, even with myself I ran into an old friend we pioneerd together , I said hello, and the other sister yelled , real loud , we are supposed to talk to you , you are dfsp, No I am not I said, I spoke to an elder and he said I dont think you are. There should have an apolgy coming for the lie spread, but there was none. Most of them are deceptive. How can love for an org. come before family, how can a mother forget the love she had for her children, or grandparents forget the love their grandchildren reguire from them. WE all know that feeling when something is not right, God gave it to us. When I left a sister said to me if you go you will lose all your friends, never mind that I would lose my life in gods book, so she is staying in the org. for friendship not her relationship with god. As you said god is not using the Wt and I believe most of them know it, yet they still go door to door, that is being deceptive. The pain that they have caused and still it goes on to so many people on this board. Can they really be sincere and not deceptive? nojw
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  AlanF

  Excellent points, SA!

  Regarding the honesty of the average JW, this is truly a mixed bag. It's true that in their own minds they're usually extremely concerned with doing God's will as they perceive it, with being honest generally, and being concerned about their fellow man. The problem, though, is how this average JW acts and thinks, not under placid circumstances, but under pressure.

  Ex-JWs are well aware that when push comes to shove, the average JW will dump family, friends and even his precious Bible down the tubes if he or she is put in a situation where a choice has to be made between them and the JW organization. This basic attitude is not evident in normal circumstances, and so most people -- JWs most of all -- don't know that it underlies everything in their religion.

  So while the average JW is 'conscious' of being scrupulously honest, in reality his willingness to compromise principle in favor of practical considerations (i.e., remaining in the JW community) shows that he is not honest. I believe that this dishonesty -- a thoroughly Orwellian thing -- is trained into JWs from their earliest experiences.

  The Fundamental Doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses is that the Governing Body speaks for God, and is to be obeyed as if God himself were speaking. That doctrine is never explicitly justified during the training of new JW converts.

  For example, in the 1995 Knowledge book, the student is led through a series of plausible-sounding but incorrect arguments (which are disconnected because they're in several chapters) to accepting first that there is such a thing as a composite "faithful slave" class, and then that the JW leadership is that composite slave. The student is not led through a series of arguments proving the existence of a slave class, but is simply told that Matthew 24:45 means what the Society claims. Later, the student is told something like, "Since Jesus said there would be a slave class distributing fine spiritual food, and we're bringing you this food, you need to recognize that our organization is being used by 'the slave' class." By this time, if the student's intellectual alarm bells have not sounded, he simply accepts what he's told and that's that. Thus, I believe that it is only poor reasoning ability, or an emotional need that overrides reasoning ability, or the coercion that parents apply to children, that causes people to accept such lousy 'arguments'.

  Almost always in the process of learning JW ideas, a potential convert finds things he disagrees with. Many simply stop the conversion process. Those who continue must decide what to do about the disagreement. Often as not, the teacher cannot overcome the disagreement itself, and the student knows it. So if he continues despite the disagreement, he has made a major committment to the religion by the very act of suppressing his own view in favor of the JW organization's view. Almost all JWs experience this, whether they committed themselves as children or as adults. Or if they committed themselves when immature, eventually they come upon a situation where they must recommit, or leave. If they recommit despite misgivings, then they've again gone against their consciences, and they know it. This going against conscience hardens a person and not only defines him as intellectually dishonest, but makes it easy for him to deceive others down the road.

  I know from personal experience how this works. When I was about 20, I nearly left the religion. But my parents convinced me to give it one more shot (actually, looking back on it, I was lazy and didn't want to leave the comforts of home and live on my own on a minimum wage job) and so I began a basic study from scratch with a young man 4-5 years my senior. We hit the notion of "ransom sacrifice", which I thought about seriously for the first time, and realized that it simply made no sense. The teacher could not answer my questions, and it became a sticking point since the purpose of my going through the exercise was to deal with the many sticking points that had caused me to want to leave in the first place. After some thought, which I now realize involved a good deal of emotionally based rationalization, I decided to ignore the problems with the "ransom" doctrine and with certain other sticking points, and finish the study. Of course, having ignored my own conscience, ignoring its warnings during the balance of the study made it much easier to slide past the rest of the sticking points.

  I believe that everyone with an intelligence level above that of a gnat who becomes a JW has to go through a similar process at some stage. Because I knew at the time that I was not being true to my own mind and conscience, I knew that I was being dishonest. In succeeding years, when I preached and tried to convince others to become JWs, I had pretty much forgotten about this prostitution of conscience. But in later years, as I discovered more and more problems with Watchtower teachings, this prostitution haunted me and I felt sick. So I know very well how JWs so easily fall into Orwellian thinking.

  This 'lying in all honesty' mentality hit home one time when I had a discussion with my mom. By that time I was pretty disgusted with the whole JW organization, since all of my attempts to get solid answers to difficult questions had been rebuffed, both by local JWs and by the Society itself. I complained bitterly that my parents and all other JWs were simply stonewalling and they knew it. My mom denied that that was the case, and so I said, "Alright, what if one of your bible students asked the same questions I've been asking?" She said, "Well, I'd try to convince them to put their questions aside, and continue with the study." I said, "Ok, and what then?" She said, "Well, I'd hope that the person would get baptized." I said, "Yes, but what about answering the person's questions that you convinced them to temporarily put aside?" She said, "Well! I'd hope that by then they'd have enough sense not to ask them!" I said, "Mom, think about what you just said. Doesn't it strike you as quite dishonest, because you told the person to forget about their questions, knowing full well that you had no intention of answering them?" She got very upset and handed the phone to my stepdad. What amazes me is that a mature and otherwise intelligent woman can be so completely oblivious to her own intellectual dishonesty. It is explainable only by understanding how the cult mentality causes people to throw away their intellects in favor of the emotional rewards of being in the cult.

  Of course, this says nothing about the person who becomes a JW for personal gain, such as being able to lord it over others, namely, by being a big fish in a small pond.

  AlanF
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  thinkers wife

  Excellent post Amazing. Well said and thought out. Very balanced, IMO.
  TW
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  openminded

  Alan- this is how my JW mother responded to your thread. How would you reply? Anyone

  I agree that there may "things" an adherent may go along with that they do
  not necessarily have a personal conviction about. I think this is perhaps
  true no matter what 'religion' a person attaches themselves to.

  But I do personally believe that if a person, for whatever reason, does not
  want to align themselves with a particular religious organization it is
  sufficient to leave. To continue to attack the religion and to justify their
  position in doing so serves no useful purpose. It is better for me to see
  the fallacy of my religion on my own than for someone to attempt to convince
  me by attacking it. For me that casts a dubiousness on the attacker.
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  CPiolo

  Openminded:

  In light of the Watchtower's propensity to attack and criticize other religions and those who don't adhere to their belief system, I find your mother's response disingenuous. They have a lengthy history of attacking any and all they feel don't measure up to their standards. When the shoe is on the other foot, your mother cries sour grapes.

  Alan's "attacks" are well documented, well thought out and logical. He doesn't engage in ad hominems or personal attacks without sufficient provocation ;). His "attacks" are criticism, and as such they are intended to help people grow, not to viciously tear them down or ridicule them, to see things they might not have seen on their own. In order to grow, one needs criticism so that they might see where they have gone wrong or where improvement can be made. The Bible says that we should correct others when we can, and the Watchtower urges everyone to be sure of all things. Everyone and every organization can benefit from constuctive criticism.

  The line between constuctive and destructive criticism can be a fine one. Oftentimes it comes down to one's motivation. No one but the individual and his maker truly know what motivates that person. But, judging from my experience observing Alan in the numerous dialogues in which I've seen him engage, he has almost always demonstrated enormous patience and an unselfish willingness to help others in any way he might. In light of this, I believe his "attacks" are more than justified, especially considering the Watchtower's own behavior in that regard.

  Peace,
  CPiolo
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  thinker

  Openminded,
  Your mom said

  But I do personally believe that if a person, for whatever reason, does not
  want to align themselves with a particular religious organization it is
  sufficient to leave. To continue to attack the religion and to justify their
  position in doing so serves no useful purpose

  I believe most ex-JWs continue to attack the WT because THEY are continueing to suffer at the hands of those still in. First, they are labeled, "DF, DA, Apostate"... Then they are shunned by former friends and family. If the WT doesn't like the attention then perhaps they should just leave these people alone.
  To your mother I would say:"But I do personally believe that if a religion, for whatever reason, does not want to align themselves with a particular person it is sufficient to remove them. To continue to attack the person and to justify their position in doing so serves no useful purpose."

  Amazing,
  When I first heard about JWs, I thought they would be exceptially "good" people. However, after hearing my wife's many stories and reading of other people's background, I believe the average JW is just that: AVERAGE. No better than any other relious or secular person. I think most are victims of the WT org. and I do not blame them personally.

  I have a question for everyone: Give me your best estimate. If the WT dropped the "shunning" what percentage of active JWs would leave the religion? Or, how many are staying in just for friends and family association?

  thinker