ARE AVERAGE JWs DECEPTIVE?

by Amazing 23 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Openminded: I will make a good effort here to respond to your Mom on each point she made:

    She said, "I agree that there may "things" an adherent may go along with that they do not necessarily have a personal conviction about. I think this is perhaps true no matter what 'religion' a person attaches themselves to."

    This is true of many situations in life, whether our job, or other collective arrangement. Where I do not have specific convictions, it is not necessarily important to get answers or make issues out of them. If those issues make life difficult, and I find them piontless, even though I hold no specific conviction or alternative, then I argue that it is time to get answers.

    She continued, "But I do personally believe that if a person, for whatever reason, does not want to align themselves with a particular religious organization it is sufficient to leave."

    In principle, I agree 100%. In most cases, one can do that very easily, and it is done frequently among many people. BUt, some organizations hold 'shunning' and 'bannishment' over the head of the person so that leaving is not easy or without dire consequences. Of course, one can still leave in most cases, but they have to sacrifice everything to stay true to their conscience, when, often times, the sacrifice is not according to God's will, but rather, the 'will' of the religious leaders who impose such standards.

    she continued, "To continue to attack the religion and to justify their position in doing so serves no useful purpose."

    By that logic, then, the WTS itself should discontinue all attacks on other religions because to attack other religions they disagree with or attempt to convert members away from those religions serves no useful purpose.

    Another way to view this is that when injustices, falsehood, deceptive practices, and fraud are perpetrated upon the ignorant and unsuspecting, then what is life worth is we do not stand up and makew this known for the benefit of those in harm's way?

    She continued, "It is better for me to see the fallacy of my religion on my own than for someone to attempt to convince me by attacking it. For me that casts a dubiousness on the attacker."

    Again, by the same logic, all JWs everywhere should discontinue preaching their message, because their literature, study programs, and argumentation contain as a core feature both explicite and implicite attacks on the religious beliefs and organizations of those with whom they contact.

    Using again another view, if we all clam-up because we might offend someone, or fail to allow them to somehow magically come to their own conclusions without any alternative information made available to them, or without input from the minds and reasoning of others, then people would still be traded as slaves, women could not own property, Caesar would still rule with absolute and unchecked authority, and we would all still we worshiping Jupiter while feeding Christian to the lions.

    Siomply Amazing

  • thinkers wife
    thinkers wife

    Thinker,
    You know I love you.
    If I had to guesstimate, I would say on the on the conservative level 25% on the outside edge 40%.
    TW

  • LDH
    LDH

    Well all I can say, is if the WT was my spiritual pimp, I want my GD money.

    They will pimp you all right, for their name. Even crackhead street whores get some of the take, if it is just a hit of crack.

    What the heck did those guys ever give any of us?

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi AlanF: Thanks for the good feedback, and your points are excellent and speak to the heart of the problem that is built into the JW thinking mechanism (or better stated: lack of thinking). I will post soon some points on non-average JW deceptive practices by local Elders and others in mid-level organizational management.

    What the average JW does not realize is how the corrupting effects of the organization is not confined to the top levels of management, but affect Elders and Ministerial Servants within one year of their appointments. If they continue in positions of management, by the time they get to the highest levels of organizational power and control, they are all but mindless robots in an ever spinning organizational mechine. Theirs is not to reason why, just do or die. - Simply Amazing

  • metatron
    metatron

    A really solid post, Amazing.

    I like to think of the wretched WTS leaders as hijackers.
    They grab people's sense of religious devotion and loyalty
    to Christianity and divert it for their own selfish ends.
    Not riches perhaps, but self-exaltation is their motive.
    - wicked work they're very good at. With their endless
    prattle about a "spiritual paradise" and their self-praising
    identity as "faithful and discreet", they hijack devotion
    and focus it on their illegitimate authority.

    metatron

  • jschwehm
    jschwehm

    Hi Alan-

    Your discussions with your folks remind me of the same discussions I had with my parents over the years.

    I once sent a list of questions that pointed out problems with certain teachings of the Society. Most of it had to do with the whole 1914 thing and the supposed composite sign. My mother was extremely upset that I would even raise these questions. I begged them to try to answer them for me. My mother would not even discuss it with me over the phone. My father's response was that I was not to send anymore questions like that to my mother. So I asked my father to answer the questions. He told me that he would not even read the questions because all those questions were designed to do was to make the Society look bad. He then told me that I should set up an appointment to meet with the elders and that I was to accept any answer that the elders gave me to those questions and that I "should not give those brothers a hard time."

    What was also interesting was the discussion that my wife had with her JW mother one day. My mother-in-law told my wife that she follows the JWs because they are the only ones that teach the Bible correctly. So, I asked her if she believed that anyone, anywhere, could read the Bible and come to understand its message. Her answer was no but that someone had to interpret it for them properly. By this time my head was hurting so bad because of the circles we were going in. She told me that no one can understand the Bible for themselves but the only reason why she follows the JWs was because they were the only ones that teach the Bible correctly. Ouch! I still get dizzy thinking about it.

    Jeff S.

  • teejay
    teejay

    openminded,

    you mom made a profound statement when she said:

    >>It is better for me to see the fallacy of my religion
    >>on my own than for someone to attempt to convince
    >>me by attacking it.

    it is also true. i have found that whenever someone's
    beliefs are attacked, a defense mechanism comes up and
    logic will not (perhaps cannot) be part of the discussion.

    it is good for all of us to keep in mind what she said. when/if
    she begins to doubt or question, even then i'd let the seed
    germinate on its own. in many cases, that's the only way it can grow.

    peace,
    todd

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    G'day all,

    Thanks everybody for an EXCELLENT discussion, and especially to Amazing for 'kicking it off'.

    <<Most importantly, the average JW is truly oblivious to most of the doctrinal deception>>
    So many of the R&F are oblivious to the darker side of the Borg. They believe that JAH=Borg because it's repeated ad infinitum. The avge R&F doesn't have time (or inclination) to meditate, to stand back and look at the org objectively. They continue in their 5 meetings pw routine believing that "it must be so". It wasn't till I had meetings and long theological/scriptural discussions with clergymen that I was able to see that they were not the Bible-ignorant feathering their own nest types that the W/T had led me to believe. I found that they knew far more of the scriptures (and in context) than the avge Witness elder. The thing is, I just didn't know. I relied on what the Borg had told me. And I taught it, sometimes passionately!, from the KH platform.

    <<That sense of total betrayal by the organization>>
    And that is a very real and serious problem. Lurkers here need to be aware of this. We have dozens of our JW friends who are going through agonies. How to help our friends becomes a constant activity for us.

    <<I suggest that conceivably the worst part of our journey out of the WTS organization is the realization that God is NOT really using the Watch Tower Society or its professed FDS to carry out his will and purpose>>
    Absolutely right.

    <<the average JW is a generally good person>>
    Up to a point. But remember that that is true of most in the general community. Don't forget that the average JW is taught to hate. Just look at the whole DF/DA process and how the R&F are forced by intimidation to deny their God-given feelings towards others.

    How much as the Lord used the Watch Tower Society? Is it the anti-Christ? These are relevant questions for those becoming newly interested in the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Ozzie

  • jurs
    jurs

    what a great topic!!! i consider myself to have been the average JW with good intentions. when i screwed up i always immediately went to the elders. i stayed away from gossip ect. ect. ect. but was i really honest?? i would have sincerely answered yes a month ago but now i recognize i wasn't. Alan f made a point that fit me. when i studied i didn't understand some of what i was being taught. I didn't believe some of it but we'd go on to the next topic and i wouldn't pursue doubts. i never wanted to be a witness. it was too much work. i guess it was laziness. perhaps it was too much work for me to pursue doubts so therefore i went along with it. its so complex. i started out with certain doubts. some how in a hazy way i came to believe 100%. then a sereies of certain circumstances happened and my initial doubts came back. why i never settled those doubts in the beginning i can't answer. It wasn't like wanted to be a JW. i wasn't raised in the truth. i had no pressure to join. i had no fear of DF when i was studying. why i went with the flow i can't anwser. JURS

  • Faraon
    Faraon

    My thoughts exactly.
    Went into corners for them, procured them more flesh to sell their magazines.
    At least prostitutes get some of the cash they earn.
    Publishers give the WT money out of their own money if their Johns do not not pay.

    JRP

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