Or maybe we're just all figments of our own imaginations.
What was he doing?
by Ariell 41 Replies latest jw friends
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drwtsn32
So of the two options, to many of us, #1 seems much more plausible than #2, because it at least posits that some intelligence directed things, and not that things started to happen on their own for no reason.
Interesting, but we have examples of things growing in complexity with no intelligence "guiding" them. A snowflake or any other crystal seems to grow with complexity as it forms.
Also, are you not simply pushing the "problem" farther away? How do you still dismiss that god had no creator? Or do you just not worry about it at that point?
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MrsQ
Counting flowers on the wall
playing Solitaire till dawn with a deck of 51
smoking cigarettes and watching Captain KangarooHeh. You funny.
Q.
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Descender
The only way that I could comprehend something being around forever is if time doesn't apply to it. Maybe time only applies to humans and the earth. I remember boggling over the question of how god could live forever when I was a young child.
It just didn't make sense to me, because even if he started creating things a zillion google to the billionth power years ago and the universe has exploded and imploded millions of times, what was he doing before that if time actually does apply to him and he has actually existed forever? That would mean that before he created anything, he was floating around in nothingness for longer than anyone can imagine, basically forever in the past.
Just one of the many reasons that I don't particularly believe in a Jehovah god. Maybe there is something, but I highly doubt it's the god the bible speaks of.
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freein89
he was busy thinkin up new light.
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Francois
Freedom, I think you're right. I think the Universe teems with life.
The JWs teaching that WE are the only creation is merely the old catholic teaching that the earth is the center of the universe. Instead of the earth being the center of the universe, the JWs teach that MAN is the center of the universe.
Once again, the Dubs come very close to what the catholics teach. I'm waiting for an offical INDEX to be published by the society.
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NeonMadman
Interesting, but we have examples of things growing in complexity with no intelligence "guiding" them. A snowflake or any other crystal seems to grow with complexity as it forms.
Well, yes, but they do so, not within a vacuum, but within a universe that has structured laws, and then only with the presence of specific physical conditions resulting from specific energy inputs. To say that a snowflake "grows" without being guided by intelligence in a universe regulated by established physical laws, is not really analogous to saying that unintelligent matter would suddenly, for no reason, start arranging itself into such a universe. The latter, imho, requires a much larger leap of faith.
Also, are you not simply pushing the "problem" farther away? How do you still dismiss that god had no creator? Or do you just not worry about it at that point?
I'll quote your own words in response, because I agreed with you when you said:
Personally I do believe that something had to not have a beginning, otherwise you run into a problem of infinite causaility (everything was created by something, that something was created by something else, that something else was created by yet something else, ad infinitum).
What I disagree with is your conclusion that
it is more reasonable to conclude that the most simple things have always existed instead of some infinitely complex being. By simple I mean the most basic atomic components or even just energy itself.
That is basically equivalent to my option #2. As I stated, I personally find it more believable to accept that the working universe was designed and created by a purposeful intelligence, who exists outside of space and time, and is therefore not bound by their constraints. Such a position explains in a much more satisfying manner the very existence of matter, energy, and the physical laws that regulate their behavior.
If what existed from eternity was merely, say, subatomic particles (setting aside for a moment why subatomic particles should exist at all), then what impetus would there have been for them ever to have assembled themselves into anything other than subatomic particles? Under your theory, one must ask, why? at every step in the process, from the very existence of matter itself, through every stage in its development into a viable universe. That's why I find option #1 more appealing. If we accept the concept of intelligent design in the universe, we don't need a rationale for every step of the process - we can understand that the universe came to be a certain way because that's the way that the One who designed it wanted it to be and made it so.
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core
Well it must have taken some time to come up with the whole JW concept and all the intricate procedures and changes (sorry tacking) that was to happen over the years
Possibly also it took a millenium or two to devise the whole Judicial Committe thing
Another Millenium working out the complex Blood issue - you can have this but you cant have that in / out in / out shake it all about
Another century or two devising the Generation Game (now you understand it - now you dont)
Wonder why he held printing back until the middle ages as it is obvious to us now that the goal was to have a major publishing corporation representing him ????
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drwtsn32
I personally find it more believable to accept that the working universe was designed and created by a purposeful intelligence, who exists outside of space and time, and is therefore not bound by their constraints.
Is that not a bit convenient? God is not bound by the constraints of our universe... is that how you rationalize God (who is infinitely complex) not ever having a beginning and never being created? If you can argue that about god, why not consider something else having existed before the laws of space and time were created moments after the big bang?
Such a position explains in a much more satisfying manner the very existence of matter, energy, and the physical laws that regulate their behavior.
Not at all, IMO. You are ignoring the even more difficult question about where God came from. I repeat that if God didn't need a creator, then why did our even simpler universe demand it? God is by definition superior and more complex than our universe which you say demands a creator.
If what existed from eternity was merely, say, subatomic particles (setting aside for a moment why subatomic particles should exist at all), then what impetus would there have been for them ever to have assembled themselves into anything other than subatomic particles?
Laws of physics cause particles to interact. Other physical laws, such as gravity, cause particles to collect and form heavier and heavier elements. The laws of physics in our universe were created moments after the big bang, but there is no reason to conclude that before the big bang other physical laws did not exist at all.
Under your theory, one must ask, why? at every step in the process, from the very existence of matter itself, through every stage in its development into a viable universe. That's why I find option #1 more appealing. If we accept the concept of intelligent design in the universe, we don't need a rationale for every step of the process - we can understand that the universe came to be a certain way because that's the way that the One who designed it wanted it to be and made it so.
By believing option 1, you are simply putting your head in the sand and deciding you'd rather not think about it. Saying "God did it" only pushes the real problem out further: who created God? Concluding that "God exists outside of our universe and is not bound by its laws" is a convenient cop out.
In effect you make your position much more difficult. Now instead of trying to explain where the universe comes from, you have to explain where an even more complex and even more impressive being came from. Perhaps it is too difficult so people just come to the convenient conclusion that he didn't need creation. Oh well...
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cruzanheart
things started to happen on their own for no reason
I think it's perfectly obvious both scenarios are correct, and the above-quoted one occurred after God created Jesus -- doesn't anyone else on this board have kids??? Big Tex and I had a very intelligent, ordered lifestyle until the kids came along, and now lots of things happen on their own for no reason. Think about it: that WOULD explain the platypus. And Madonna.
Nina