by Ariell 41 Replies latest jw friends
: What was he doing?
You must first produce evidence that God "created" what we know to be. You cannot do that, so your ruminations are just wishful thinking. Every comment that purports to explain your wishful thinking is every bit as much bullshit as is your wishful thinking.
Besides that, you are asking the wrong question. Now what do you think would be a better question than the one you asked?
Farkel
Now what do you think would be a better question than the one you asked?
Perhaps "Why do humans seem to have this uncontrollable urge to believe in supernatural beings?"
God is not bound by the constraints of our universe... is that how you rationalize God (who is infinitely complex) not ever having a beginning and never being created? If you can argue that about god, why not consider something else having existed before the laws of space and time were created moments after the big bang?
OK, let's condsider that. Tell me what it was.
It really isn't a question of "rationalizing" God being eternal and uncreated. Time seems to clearly be a function of our physical universe. Anything existing outside the boundaries of the physical universe - even another universe - would logically seem not to be bound by space and time constraints. How much more so the eternal Creator who designed both space and time!
You are ignoring the even more difficult question about where God came from. I repeat that if God didn't need a creator, then why did our even simpler universe demand it? God is by definition superior and more complex than our universe which you say demands a creator.
My point is that God is, by definition, both infinite and eternal, and is the Source of all created things. It would be expected that He would be more complex than the universe He creates. Is not the designer of a house more complex than the house itself? By definition, God is a special case, there is no other like Him.
Can I prove with certainty that God exists? Of course not. But I think that the fact that billions of people have claimed to have had experience with God is a strong argument for His existence (as my textbook for Intro to Philosophy pointed out, if even one of those people was correct, then God exists). How could we ever know about such a being unless He revealed Himself to us? Yet revelation is, by its nature, subjective.
Your assertion, imho, is much more unlikely. Matter that should not exist at all, for some reason, does. Physical laws, that should not exist at all, for some reason, do. For no apparent reason, and with no particular impetus, this undifferentiated simple matter starts to arrange itself into complex structures, which develop with increasing complexity until some of them are sufficiently complex that they are able to think about what they are.
You may want to visit a junkyard sometime to determine whether matter left to itself tends to become more complex or less so.
Laws of physics cause particles to interact. Other physical laws, such as gravity, cause particles to collect and form heavier and heavier elements.
Why should these laws exist at all? If you assume that simple matter existed and that gravity acted upon it (even though there is no reason for either the matter or gravity to exist), what was the catalyst that made gravity act upon it at one point in time rather than at another? If there was such a catalyst, then you have introduced an outside force acting upon the matter. But if there was no catalyst, why did anything happen at all?
The laws of physics in our universe were created moments after the big bang, but there is no reason to conclude that before the big bang other physical laws did not exist at all.
There is also no reason to conclude that they did. There is no reason to conclude anything at all about what existed before the Big Bang - matter, no matter, energy, no energy, physical laws, no physical laws - nobody knows. You are arguing from a total vacuum. You don't have a clue where or what this universe came from, but you are willing to dismiss out of hand the possibility of intelligent design - the possibility that, in my estimation, makes the most sense, particularly in the absence of other information to the contrary.
"Why do humans seem to have this uncontrollable urge to believe in supernatural beings?"Because that's the way God made them - with an internal urge to seek Him?
Well neon, your scenario could possibly work, except that we have no actual way of verifying god's existence. You said that in scenario #1 we would have to continually be asking "why?", but in scenario #2 we would have to continually ask "where?", as in "where is the intelligent designer?". It would be great to posit him as being possibly responsible for this whole thing, but we'd have to first esatblish that he exist, now won't we? When was the last time you met an infintely complex deity? If it's impossible to meet him (or for you to verify this meeting objectively to many other people), then can it really be reasonable to believe in the unverifiable? To me it's almost like when the ancients believed in ether; it's a great explanation that could make a lot of sense, except there was no evidencew to back it up. If belief in god has to be heavily predicated on faith (i.e.: unverifiable), then we can't really call it reasonable, can we? Possible? Maybe. Probable? Not untill Mr. Almighty proves himself existant.
If God created everything and if He had no beginning and if he can see the future, then probably he spent quite a bit of his time asking himself "do I really want to do this?".
What did the Big Bang come from? What exactly exploded? Maybe there was another universe before this one. It expanded like ours is doing and then reached a certain point where everything started coming back together. Everything finally does come back together into the big black hole at the center, compresses into a tight little ball, and BAM! Everything starts over again.
Mike.
well, MY God was busy growing in the womb of my Goddess.....so he could be born, grow up and become her Consort and start the whole thing over again.The real question then is what was the Dark Mother doing before she conceived the God? Obviously it had something to do with sex ala black holes and big bangs.
Ravyn
crownboy:
You said that in scenario #1 we would have to continually be asking "why?", but in scenario #2 we would have to continually ask "where?", as in "where is the intelligent designer?". It would be great to posit him as being possibly responsible for this whole thing, but we'd have to first esatblish that he exist, now won't we? When was the last time you met an infintely complex deity?
As I pointed out earlier, billions of people have claimed to have "met" God in the sense of experiencing Him in their lives. If even one of those people was correct, then God exists. As I also said, it would be impossible for us to know an infinite God unless He revealed Himself to us, but revelation is subjective and personal. I have no doubt that those who sincerely seek after God will come to know Him.
can it really be reasonable to believe in the unverifiable?
The existence of God is no less verifiable than drwtsn32's postulate about simple matter being eternal, or the oscillating universe that Bendrr posits. In fact, God is more verifiable than those two theories, because at least there is subjective evidence and personal testimony about God, neither of which exists for the other two theories.
Bendrr:
If God created everything and if He had no beginning and if he can see the future, then probably he spent quite a bit of his time asking himself "do I really want to do this?".
That's probably what I'd be asking if I were in His shoes. Good thing He has a lot more patience than I do, no?
What did the Big Bang come from? What exactly exploded? Maybe there was another universe before this one. It expanded like ours is doing and then reached a certain point where everything started coming back together. Everything finally does come back together into the big black hole at the center, compresses into a tight little ball, and BAM! Everything starts over again.Well, that's a good theory, but as I pointed out above, there's no evidence for it, or for any other theory as to what preceded the Big Bang. So, to those who ask how I can believe in God without evidence (though I believe there is evidence, as I said), I'd have to ask why that theory or any other should seem more plausible than that of an intelligent designer, since every other theory is equally lacking in evidence.
Heres something to think about. If we were the onoly ones then how did the dinosaurs get here and where are they now. Should'nt they still be here, does anyone honestly think that man made them extinct ?
neonmadman,
Thank you for sharing.
: Can I prove with certainty that God exists? Of course not. But I think that the fact that billions of people have claimed to have had experience with God is a strong argument for His existence (as my textbook for Intro to Philosophy pointed out, if even one of those people was correct, then God exists).
That's an ad populum argument: "if a zillion people believe it, it MUST be true."
It's a logical fallacy and the sign of a bad argument, even if it is true. There are better ways to argue this, but no philosopher in the history of this planet has been able to logically prove the existence of God. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. Zilch. It simply cannot be done.
Everyone is welcome to believe in a Creator (whatever version they prefer), but only fools try to prove that Creator exists. Logic will demolish every argument put forward to that end.
(I tend towards believing in a Creator, by the way. I'm just not foolish enough to try to prove it to anyone.)
Farkel
What was god doing? That's easy... he was he was contemplating his bellybutton lint.
