I have to disagree with the statement that the nation of Israel in the middle east is in any way connected to the scripture posted . The nation of Israel in ancient times was the center of true worship to God with the temple and the ark of the covenant being the only means of atoning for sins and offering prayers in the fashion of which the God of the old testament commanded the Israelites . To this day they have not restored any form of true worship as they did when they were released from babylon . The apostles wrote that the mossaic law became obsolete when jesus died so as far as I'm concerned the establishment of judaism would be entirely pointless .
Israel??
by l3gi0n 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
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JCanon
what a load of rubbish. the jews today have nothing to do with bible prophecy. 1948 means nothing.
Well, it's rubbish to you, since that's your opinion. JWs, likewise, think the natural Jews have nothing to do to fulfill Bible prophecy. But the Bible does say they would one day return to their homeland.
Of note on my side of the argument is that 1947 isn't just any year. It's the 50th JUBILEE since 455BCE. The jubilee is the 50th year after a week of 49 years and thus the 1st year to begin another 49 years. So 1947 would have been a significant jubilee year for either Christians or the Jews anyway. Interesting that's the very year the Jews regained control over Palestine.
Also, of note, in Luke when a reference is made to the "appointed times of the nations" it shows the literal Jews, not the Christians, being led into exile and Jerusalem was to be trampled on by the nations, meaning the Jews would remain in exile during that time. So when the Jews return is a signal to many that that is the true "end of the gentile times" in Palestine and the restoration of the Jews and from that point we stem other chronology.
So disbelieve if you wish, but seems might "coincidental" to me that the Jews return on their own 50th jubilee, right?
Hmmmmmmm.....
Canon
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mizpah
JCanon:
Please note I said the "Old Testament" prophecies. The mention of Armageddon is New Testament prophecy. The OT prophecies carry two themes. The destruction of Israel and Judah and the return of both to restore Israel, rebuild the temple and to establish the Messiah as ruler. Most Jews felt that the first was fulfilled by the Assyrians and Babylonians. Their return thereafter was under the subjection of other Gentile powers (Persian, Greek, Roman, etc.) Except for a brief period of the Hasmonian kings, the Jews did not enjoy a nation of their own. (Many undoubtedly may have thought this was a fulfillment of those prophecies. But it failed to meet the criteria.) Therefore, the expectation of the Jews for the future was the rule of their Messiah and the a time of peace and prosperity for themselves and the world. This is the reason that some were disappointed that Jesus did not rule when he appeared the first time.
Most Bible scholars will agree that natural Israel still will have a vital role to play in these prophecies. But obviously the Messiah has not returned (Watchtower not withstanding) and the state of Israel has been in constant turmoil since 1948. As mentioned before, even some orthodox Jews reject the present state of Israel as an imposter.
It would not be the first time that Jews tried to force a fulfillment of Bible propechy. Take for example the Temple of Onius in the land of Egypt. But God accomplishes his purpose according to His own will, that that of human efforts or interpretations.
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JCanon
Therefore, the expectation of the Jews for the future was the rule of their Messiah and the a time of peace and prosperity for themselves and the world. This is the reason that some were disappointed that Jesus did not rule when he appeared the first time.
Actually, we agree, except the details of fulfillment are not quite right.
Basically the Jews get back to their homeland after this attack of "Gog of Magog" (the Nazis), but they don't get their king ruling in the earth until the millennium begins. That's when Christ becomes king in Israel.
Again, I'm with you on Israel being significant in the last days and don't know how the WTS could have missed this reference regarding their restoration, one of many in scripture...Ezekie 39-39:
38:8 "In the final part of the years will you come into the land..... 39:25 "...Now is when I shall bring back the captive ones of Jacob and actually have mercy upon all the ouse of Israel.. When I bring them back fro the peoples and I actually collect them together out of the lands of their enemies."
The restoration to their land took place at the "end of the gentile times" which was in 1947; this was also the end of the "1290 days." Their Messiah was to arrive 45 years later to fulfill the "1335 days". But he was to first come not as a king ruling over Israel, but as a "thief in the night" for an interval of time when Satan was still in operation.
Thus the promises of peace and the rule by a king in Israel in total peace would not be fulfilled until after this interval is over, when the millennium begins. So the arrival of the Messiah and the beginning of his rule in the earth over Israel are two different events. The first is dated to 1992 by Bible prophecy, the other, as Acts states is not known and "within God's own jurisdiction."
Acts 1:6 "they went asking him: 'Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" he said to them: "It does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction."
As I noted, at least 4 chronologic references coordinate to date the "second coming" which is not the same time as when God restores his kingdom in Israel, something God has kept to himself, and thus has not provided in scripture.
People have various interpretations, but my impression is the peace and righteousness and all those things that Israel would have under their final king would not take place until he actually began to rule over Israel again and that would not be until after the other kingdoms have stepped down and thus after "Armageddon".
If you need an OT reference, an excellent chronology application is understood using the Image with the head of gold, breast of silver, etc. A stone is cut out of a moutain and travels through the air to strike the feet of the image and grinds all the representative kingdoms to pieces. Thus when the stone is cut out of the mountain, that is the time the kingdom is set up; that is the time of the second coming. But it does not strike the feet of the ruling nations immediately, there is an interval between that event and the time when that kingdom strikes the feet and destroys the image and then becomes a big mountain to rule over the entire earth. That is when Israel will have those prophesies fulfilled and when the temple will be completed, etc. except the earthly temple was a shadow of the greater spiritual temple anyway, so that is the temple that will be completed at the time of the second coming; not an earthly temple.
Canon
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mizpah
After years of reading the Watchtower's interpretation about God's time tables, I'm always wary about any speculations on the sequences and fulfillments of prophecy. The best counsel is still the one Jesus gave to his disciples: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."
As in the past, we often don't know exactly how scriptures are fulfilled until the predicted event has passed. Hindsight is always better. But most men find it difficult to admit an error. Certainly, this was true of Russell and Rutherford...and the Watchtower in general. William Miller was one of the few that did and apologized to his followers for his mistakes. I always admired him for this.
The two remarkable things that have impressed me is that "Israel" as represented by the Jews has survived against all historical odds. And that once again our attention is focused on the ancient land we call the "holy land." Whether or not this represents specific prophecies remains to be seen. But, at least the two essentials for fulfillment are there.
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JCanon
"It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."
Hi Mizpah. I agree with you that many prophecies will understood and noted to be fulfilled after the fact. However, many prophesied Biblical events that are connected to prophecy are now past events. The above scripture, though, is not a general reference to all future events but just to one specific event, and that was in answer to a question to Jesus as to when his kingdom would begin to rule in the earth. That is something connected with immediately after Armageddon. It is that specific event that is within God's jurisdiction and which we should not concern ourselves with trying to date. But other events, such as the "end of the gentile times" (1947) which also ends the 1290 days, the second coming ("7 times prophecy"; "1335 days prophecy", "70th mid-week prophecy") have chronology connected to them and thus can be dated Biblically.
For instance, the "jubilee" event of the 50th jubilee since 455BCE would be a significant event to fulfill in regards to the Jews returning for the final time to their homeland, if ever that symbolism was to be fulfilled. The 50th jubilee occurs in 1947. Is it thus a mere coincidence the Jews return to Palestine within that rear and officially become a nation again? I hardly think so. Is it also a coincidence that we can now prove by the VAT4956 that the fall of Jerusalem occurred in 529BCE and thus the end of the "7 times" can be correctly dated to 1992 and that is also the same year that the "1335 days" ends from 1947? (1947+45=1992, 1290+45=1335; 2520 - 529=1991+1=1992). I hardly think so. Plus the mid-70th-week passover occurs in 1993. Are all these prophecies converging in 1992-1993 just a coincidence? If one is inclined in the direction of thinking so, then can one expect to follow other less subtle Biblical references I'm wondering.
I know it's easier not to look at all and just wait. But if you have faith, it will be rewarded when you see everything being fulfilled right on time. Still, the things left in God's own jurisdiction remain a mystery upon which we must wait.
Canon
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mizpah
Yes, I realized the context was Jesus' admonition to his apostles who had expectations that were not to be fulfilled at that time. This is why I think the advice is good for all of us too.
There have been too many religious leaders and scholars who thought they had found the "key" to Bible understanding through Bible prophecy. The whole Adventist movement was based upon this belief. All came to bitter disappointment when the events predicted failed. And all their impressive charts and graphs were for nothing.
If history is a good teacher, caution should be the rule.
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JCanon
All came to bitter disappointment when the events predicted failed. And all their impressive charts and graphs were for nothing.
Well, as I said, we are POST FULFILLMENT at this time so the prophecies work. The 50th jubilee which should have seen the Jews return to the homeland for the last time SHOULD HAVE occurred in 1947 and IT DID occur in 1947, so that prophesy was fulfilled.
The "great tribulation" per chronology SHOULD HAVE occurred after 62 weeks, meaning after 1940 but before 1947, a "great tribulation" like none other that happened before to Daniel's people and one in which "two parts" out of three would be exterminated. That DID happen during the HOLOCAUST. So those prophecies WERE fulfilled just as the Bible says. It's after the fact. The other prophecies you mentioned by others FAILED. These did not.
Canon
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mizpah
I digress from the subject a bit. But I recently read an article about a number of Fundamentalists and some radical Orthodox Jews are working toward the re-establishment of the Temple on the Temple mount. As I understand it, they have even made a search for a perfect "red heifer" to use in sacrifice and are making garments for the high priest and under priests and possibly planning for a new ark of the covenant along with the other Temple accouterments.
Most of the Jews, however, realize that to remove the present Islamic mosques on the site would cause the greatest Jihad ever. It would, undoubtedly, unite the fractured Islamic nations in their desire to destroy Israel. This is why the majority of the Jews are repressing any effort toward this end.
Speaking of Bible prophecy...does anyone know who the Watchtower now identifies as the "king of the north?" Since the breakup of the Soviet Union, it has been very quiet about its identity. Is this just another example of the Watchtower's failure to accurately predict prophetic fulfillments? It's trash can must be getting quite full now...
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coffee_black
Hi Mizpah,
Around the time I sent my disassociation letter, (1993) I called Brooklyn and asked to speak to someone in the writing dept. I asked that very question..."Who do you say the King of the North is now?". I was told in effect, that they didn't know yet, and would have to wait to see what developed.
So much for being directed by God.
Coffee