Apostate Logical Fallacies -- Part 1

by logansrun 43 Replies latest jw friends

  • Inquiry
    Inquiry

    Just throwing my two cents in...

    I have to say that I agree with Bradley on this one. I know first hand how people inside the organisation can hurt it's members, and I know that to a lesser or greater degree the organisation appears to protect the perpetrators. But what the WT is actually doing is protecting itself, not as a religious structure, but as an organisation. It is an organisation's first responsibility and priority. See Business Organisation 101. All organisations do this. They are governed by laws, regulations and policy and it's one of the reasons that the legal department is what it is in the WT. They need it to be.

    It's no surprise that the WT deals with such serious issues as pedophiles and blood transfusions etc. in the way that it does. It has to. It's a strength and it's also a weakness. I think that's why what Bradley is saying here is quite important. By doing what it does, the WT maintains itself and it's appearance to the outside world as a credible organisation. That's why relatively little has happened to the organisation itself in spite of all the public outcry on the pedophile and blood transfusion issues. Also, I don't think it's an accident that the organisation felt the need to restructured legally a few years ago. They knew they had big problems, and they fixed some of them. But not all. No organisation is without it's weaknesses. It would be interesting to hear what a corporate lawyer would have to say about the structure and the restructuring of the WT. That would go a long way to see just what the organisation thinks it's weaknesses are.

    The problem for those that have been inside of the organisation and experienced the difference between what the WT defines itself to the outside world as and how the WT defines itself outside of those perameters to it's members is how do we establish our credibility. It's not enough to have gone through the experience. We have to prove it. It's one thing to go through the painful and gutwrenching, heartbreaking experience. It's quite another to try to make an organisation as protected as the WT accountable for what is done in it's name. I underlined that phrase to make it distinct. What the organisation does, and what is done in it's name are two different things, most importantly in the legal sense. We get hung up on that quite a bit here, and it is one of the distinctions I think Bradley is trying to make.

    I think it's great that we can get attention to these issues by the emotional impact they have, in the court of public opinion, but that doesn't work so well in a court of law. They require evidence. Solid evidence and that has been the hardest thing to achieve. Most people who are inside and come out of the WT, don't know how important it is to keep records, times, dates, witnesses (ones that won't lie or use theocratic warfare tactics), etc. How important a journal can be. In pedophilia cases, it's impossible to prove someone said, "Don't go to the authorities" unless you have it written or taped. And that's how they get out of it. Legally defined perameters = Credibility. That tape recording Bill Bowen had of the WT representative saying, "Just walk away", was a powerful piece of evidence. Used properly, that evidence could help establish that there is a difference between what the WT says is a policy and what it practices. But the tape is only one piece of that puzzle. More is needed.

    I think what Bradley is suggesting is a fair methodology, a means of achieving that elusive credibility publicly and legally. It seperates the anecdotal experience from the evidence of it. It doesn't belittle the experience, it defines how to describe it.

    I look forward to part two of this topic Bradley.

    Thanks

    Inq

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee
    Many here are hurting - badly and it is natural they aren't the most balanced in how they see the organization. I can deal with that.

    But, shouldn't they try and change that? At least...eventually?

    My issue here is that historically victims of any kind of abuse have little to lose by telling the truth.

    But, you've just said they aren't the most balanced about what they say.

    Most victims actually minimze how bad it really was for them.

    With some things, perhaps. With this religion? I don't think so.

    Recovery takes time. The more balanced viewpoint comes with some sort of resolution.

    What I said was that they weren't balanced about how they saw the organization. That is not the same as what they say about their experience.

    They are angry at an org that has hurt them. They have a right to be angry. It is their experiences that they often minimize.

    People usually don't speak well of those who dupe them. Dawning awareness that lives have been sacrificed, people have died, education, careers lost, children never born, children have been abused and died all for a pack of lies, betrayal and abuse does not engender a fondness.

    However many people have family whom they still love within the walls of the org. Being DFed or DAing oneself leaves a person with no object/person on which they can vent their anger. They are left with a impersonal organization that uses people and casts them off when they are considered a threat to the safety of the organization.

    This is the reality of many. In time they will deal with the anger they feel. But they need our support (which is one of reasons for this board) and time - lots of it

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Inquiry,

    **** It has to. It's a strength and it's also a weakness. I think that's why what Bradley is saying here is quite important. By doing what it does, the WT maintains itself and it's appearance to the outside world as a credible organisation.****

    I think your expanding Bradley's commentary further than required. I do agree that generalizing watchtower malfeasance is counter productive in some situations, but in the context of jwd, individuals are more inclined to reveal personal observations/experiences, having little to do with the corporate survival or public relations.

    What you say is a fact of business life. But the WTBS is far more than a business empire/conglomerate, it is and proclaims itself to be, the vessel Jehovah god uses to instruct, nurture, protect, those who dedicate their lives to Jehovah, Jesus, and the Organization.

    This fact alone sets the bar considerably higher than those managers at General Motors who are responsible for 'the corporate philosophy'.

    So what you have postulated may be correct technically, but in the reality, peoples very hopes, dreams, aspirations, and spritual well being are all wrapped up in the package.

    Danny

  • Mr. Kim
    Mr. Kim

    Good post! Points well made and will be taken into consideration and thought!

    But, sometimes, it is so very easy to "generalize." Some people deserve it. Don't you think?

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Mr Kim,

    Iam becoming very fond of your brevity and succinct replies. In other words I like you.

    Danny

    Ps. And I do think (especially) in the case of wtbs it is quite safe to 'generalize' many observations about their misconduct.......thank you.

  • Inquiry
    Inquiry

    Hi Dannybear..

    Thank you for your response.

    *****I think your expanding Bradley's commentary further than required. I do agree that generalizing watchtower malfeasance is counter productive in some situations, but in the context of jwd, individuals are more inclined to reveal personal observations/experiences, having little to do with the corporate survival or public relations.*****

    I expanded on Bradley's commentary for a reason. I agree that it's fine and well to reveal personal observations and experiences, and I don't disagree that JWD is a forum for just that. It is also more. People use the forum to inform us about what is happening practically and legally with the WT, lawsuits and their results, promoting television shows, books and programs that discuss pros and cons of the WT, critiquing literature, supporting participants with suggestions for treatment and support, and educating participants about critical thinking, amongst a host of other things. JWD wonderfully serves many purposes and does so well. It's also representative of a community, one that has little cohesive representation outside of this forum or others like it. I don't think it's going too much further on Bradleys suggestion of credibility to point out the benefits of that credibility and I wanted to show how it can apply here, not that it has to, just that it can.

    It's also true that if some are serious about wanting to change the WT status quo, then there's still a long way to go. This site also serves considerable discussion about just that topic, and Bradley's commentary and my response seem to fit that very well. Establishing credibility and using it are important steps in that process. And this forum, be it deliberate or not, coheses a group of people with similar interests, not the least of which is bringing about that change or remedy to a troubling and frustrating situation.

    *****What you say is a fact of business life. But the WTBS is far more than a business empire/conglomerate, it is and proclaims itself to be, the vessel Jehovah god uses to instruct, nurture, protect, those who dedicate their lives to Jehovah, Jesus, and the Organization.*****

    I'm of the opinion that the WT can switch between it's claims of being God's organisation and just an organisation as easily as we change our underwear. It can do so any time it's inclined to. It's just a claim, and could be viewed as a suggestion from the outside, notwithstanding probably has been viewed as a suggestion legally. That some of us (me included) took it seriously and were damaged (some of us seriously damaged) because of it, doesn't mean that the WT will be made to be responsible. If your laundry soap doesn't clean your clothes as it claims it can.... how would you propose to persue the company. They can tell you it's a problem with your water... a problem with your machine.. .etc... The WT is the same. If someone has a problem with them, they usually put it down to a problem with that individual. That's one of the ways this organisation acts just like any business. If it can act this way, then we must be prepared to deal with it on that basis.

    My response to the last part of the comment is, on the dollar bill, the US mint makes the suggestion, "Trust In God". Do you think that's fully true, does that mean all americans trust in God or that even all of the employees that work for the mint trust in God? It is the naive (and I was one of those naive) that trusted the proclamations of the WT. If the WT is found wanting in those areas, let that be the problem of the WT, Those of us that fell for it need to find credible ways to help others from falling for it. And help those that already have. It's a big job and a lot of the little pieces of it have already started here. I hope, through this DB, and others like it, and through the efforts of it's participants that the WT find it harder and harder to defend themselves against the fallout from making such audatious and fallacious claims, and one day I hope that they are taught a lesson for misleading and harming so many because of making those claims.

    *****This fact alone sets the bar considerably higher than those managers at General Motors who are responsible for 'the corporate philosophy'. So what you have postulated may be correct technically, but in the reality, peoples very hopes, dreams, aspirations, and spritual well being are all wrapped up in the package.*****

    The WT at it's core is an organisation not unlike General Motors and it protects and defends itself accordingly. It's a publishing company. IMO If anyone truly wants to have any effect whatsoever on the WT, they have to treat it like one. It's an important distinction. One that is not made often in discussion. The distinction you make above is a moral one, not necessarily a legal one. IMO we have little hope of changing the moral climate inside the WT. The WT itself, as an organisation is not moral, it's a business, and I'm quite sure the WT is aware of that. We should be too. The term "package" is one I find most appropriate. IMO Religion is a product the WT sells through books, magazines, video tapes, etc. It's a commodity and it's followers are it's consumers. The bar that some set for the WT might be in reality be quite a bit lower than it's thought to be. That is a matter of opinion. Also, I beleive that if people's hopes, dreams, aspirations and spiritual well being are wrapped up in this, then we ought to see that we are technically correct if we wish to make any difference.

    Thanks again DannyBear,

    Inq

    edited to remove a straggler... :)

  • teejay
    teejay

    It's probably been mentioned already, but the problem with sites like this one is that it represents the diametric opposite of pro-JW sites. When taken as a whole, the often venomous attitude held by many of this board's contributors toward the Watchtower Society by no means represents an objective, or even truthful, viewpoint. The demographic of this place is definitely limited and as skewed as JW-only forums.

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Inquiry,

    Thanks for your reasoned reply.

    **** It's also representative of a community, one that has little cohesive representation outside of this forum or others like it. I don't think it's going too much further on Bradleys suggestion of credibility to point out the benefits of that credibility and I wanted to show how it can apply here, not that it has to, just that it can.****

    I agree. Credibiity is often the deciding factor as to whether the messenger and his message is accepted or not.

    I think jwd is growing more credible every day. Efforts to curtail rankor and strife among the membership, to allow everyone equal opportunity to express themselves will allow for this (jwd) venue to be more successful than it's predecessors.

    ****Establishing credibility and using it are important steps in that process. And this forum, be it deliberate or not, coheses a group of people with similar interests, not the least of which is bringing about that change or remedy to a troubling and frustrating situation.****

    Repition for emphasis.

    ****IMO we have little hope of changing the moral climate inside the WT.****

    I have always felt this way. Reformation of the tenents of this cult is a pipe dream.

    As regards the dollar bill/coinage of the USA depicting the expression "In God We Trust", it has become as meaningful as the expression 'God Bless America'........even known athiests can use the expression without compromising their beliefs. In other words it's just an emotional plea for solidarity and unity.

    Jw's use all sorts of similar coloquialisims, their kingdom melodies song book are full of such prose.

    A pleasure to have shared a few comments with you.

    Danny

  • Inquiry
    Inquiry

    It was most certainly a pleasure DannyBear... Thank you and your welcome.

    Teejay... I don't necessarily agree with that... I don't think that we are exactly the diametric opposite, I think we to lesser/greater degrees are what results from having involvement with something like the WT. I think never having something to do with the cult and working to eliminate it would be closer to it's diametric opposite. But, that's just my opinion. Even if only some get the point about credibility, I think it could improve matters significantly, and might change some of the negative characteristics we as a group deal with.

    Thanks for your response.

    Again, I can't wait for Bradley's part two!

    Inq

  • talesin
    talesin

    teejay

    i have to disagree with you. my friends (none of whom were ever jw) all hate WTBTS even more than me.

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