by logansrun 66 Replies latest jw friends
Lady Lee,
I'll give you that. I thought your comments were pretty well thought out. We all come from different JW backgrounds. I was a brother who was well liked and had many "priveleges" in the org. especially for someone my age. I only had one "traumatic" emotional negative experience as a dub (well, till I left anyway) and this might make my viewpoint a little rosey. Oh well.
Bradley
PS -- I still stand by my post, though.
I think it only fair to judge the Borg using the Borg's own set of standards. Does the end justify the means? I learned nothing from the Borg that I could not have learned elsewhere with less bull$h!t and more humanity. Big whoopie they are against drug abuse and stealing. Like someone else already mentioned, so were the Nazi's and Soviets. And I cannot justify someone becoming more 'Christlike'(in who's opinion?) by learning how to condemn their fellow man to death over a cigarette. Sorry. The only good in the Borg will either get out of it or die off. No human is capable of going their entire life with their eyes closed against reality and humanity unless they choose to. everyone is ultimately responsible for themselves. JW or not.
Ravyn
It seems to me there are some threads that seperate the thinkers from the feelers.
When I was 21, I knew everything. I thought the world was inhabited by idiots. There wasn't a problem I could not solve. If only people would listen to me! I had life by the ass and I wasn't letting go.
Now I'm 41 and looking back I realize how unwise I was. I knew a lot, but I understood very little. I look back on the man I was in my 20's with amused tolerance. It is only now as I am settling into middle age that I realize how little I actually know. The total tonnage is staggering. It has only been recently that I have begun to appreciate the shades of gray to all those black and white answers. And how rarely a simple answer really solves a complex problem.
The beginning of wisdom is the realization of how little one actually knows.
BT could have wrote that myself but hey you said it better
Hi there bud
Francois,
Wow. Your explanation explained nothing. Show me where I went wrong in my thinking, sir. You are obfuscating the point of the entire thread which is simply this: much of the thinking on this board and "arguments" (used loosely) put foraward as to why the Society is wrong or otherwise wicked are distorted themselves, given over to extreme generalizations, overly emotional and the like. Honestly, you have been one of the worst culprits of this so it surprises me not that you mock me and disagree with me (although you provide no real examples).
Thank you Francois. You helped prove my point.
Bradley
logansrun states:
2) Focusing on the bad, totally ignoring the good: this is most related to the fallacy I previously discussed with one exception – instead of people think of teachings. Just because many Witness teachings are false or harmful does not mean that every Witness teaching is false and harmful. All too often I see statements like, “I won’t trust anything the Watchtower says” or other sweeping statements. Really? You mean you disagree with the Awake! article on how to avoid a heart attack? Or how about the suggestions on dealing with osteoporosis -- would you ignore them?Just because many of the teachings of the JWs are wrong or, to be blunt, stupid, does not mean that there are no redeeming qualities about the Society. I think they offer very good suggestions on public speaking, for example. I see nothing wrong with how they handle their finances in general. There are also some good articles dealing with the “new personality” and the like. In short, not everything the Society teaches is wrong. That may seem like an obvious point, but sometimes I wonder if people realize this.
Your basis for your stance and argument is outright silly. Of course not every single Jehovah's Witness teaching is false and harmful. Often with cults and propaganda you find small shreds of truth enmeshed amidst a web of lies. Politics is a fine example. On both sides, whether Democratic or Republican you often find partisan statements that do contain small grains of fact. Does that mean one is to accept them as honest, forthcoming people? Of course not! Just because a limited amount of honest statements are sometimes included among other doctrines known to be lies we are supposed to consider the Watchtower Society to have redeeming quality? That is nonsense!
3) Use of highly emotive language: Words like “evil, wicked, liars, etc.” are strong language. Hitler was an evil man. Stalin was a wicked man. Bill Clinton was a liar (sort of). But, when we start to apply words like this to the Society we may – note MAY – be making a mistake. I honestly cannot say that the GB are all liars or evil or whatever other terrible thing you can think of. Again, the human condition is very complex and these men have spent their whole lives living out a deeply ingrained fantasy. They really believe it! I think this must be taken into account before passing judgment on someone. (Some members here are extremely harsh on the GB to the point of being extremely distasteful. I am reminded of when Milton Henschel died and more than a few were saying they would like to dance on his grave or dig up his bones.)Often I read that the GB are murderers. This is because of the Society’s prohibition on blood transfusions. But, is it really correct to call them murderers? Some people called LBJ a murderer for keeping American troops in Vietnam so long? But, do you think that was his intention -- to just kill young men? I don't think so. Misguided and his policy may have been, there is a great deal of difference between being a willful murderer and in promoting a policy which you feel you is the right and noble thing to do which happens to lead to the death of some.
Have you ever actually personally spoken to Ted Jaracz or seen him in interviews? You say Hitler was an evil man. As Fuhrer of the German government he did manage to balance the budget. Does this make him redeemable? Of course not. The Governing Body members knowingly support doctrines such as the blood issue (the case of organ transplants also comes to mind) which vacillate every few years and knowingly kill innocent people.
Have you ever personally met members of the GB? Then who are you to allege and present that they necessarily believe what they preach? With all the cushy perks of having millions worship you as a god (if you try to deny the worship of GB members and FDS, then you expose your flawed logic yet again and do not know JW's very well) and have housing, food, clothing, and transportation all provided... why give up that power, prestige, and comfort? Faith healers travel from town to town setting up tents conducting circus acts touching people while claiming to cure them of cancer and any other ailment. Do they necessarily believe what they are doing? Of course not, they know they are fake. But to the public, they present themselves as legitimate. Why? In the name of the almighty dollar.
Get real.
Big Tex, Had I known you when you were 21, I would've spared you much constrernation.,...............Bradley, I gave you some examples.
It seems to me there are some threads that seperate the thinkers from the feelers.
And you practice neither of these qualities.
Brummie
Reborn,
Thank you for your...ahem..objective and unemotional response.
You said:
Have you ever actually personally spoken to Ted Jaracz or seen him in interviews? You say Hitler was an evil man. As Fuhrer of the German government he did manage to balance the budget. Does this make him redeemable? Of course not.
I've had the occassion to listen to TJ speak as well as heard, what I feel to be, reliable reports about him. I believe he comes closest to being the "worst" GB member since Judge Rutherford. He's arrogant, cold-hearted and heavy handed. I do not think he is akin to Hitler (Hitler!) though. Don't change the subject from the JWs to the Nazis.
The Governing Body members knowingly support doctrines such as the blood issue (the case of organ transplants also comes to mind) which vacillate every few years and knowingly kill innocent people.
Do you believe they do this because they just want them to die? Or do they actually believe they are doing the will of God by having such a policy? Think.
Have you ever personally met members of the GB?
Yes I have. I met Lyman Swingle briefly at an assembly some years ago. Seemed like a gentle fellow.
Then who are you to allege and present that they necessarily believe what they preach?
Who are you to say they don't. Also, I've read Crisis of Conscience and think Ray Franz is a very frank and trustworthy fellow. He himself said that most members of the GB are kindly sorts of men (although there were evidently some exceptions). He also called them "victims of victims." Since he had first hand knowledge of the inner workings of this executive council I tend to believe what he says. The picture he paints is of a misguided group of zealots who honestly believe they are God's organization. Have you actually read CoC or do you disagree with Ray?
With all the cushy perks of having millions worship you as a god (if you try to deny the worship of GB members and FDS, then you expose your flawed logic yet again and do not know JW's very well) and have housing, food, clothing, and transportation all provided... why give up that power, prestige, and comfort? Faith healers travel from town to town setting up tents conducting circus acts touching people while claiming to cure them of cancer and any other ailment. Do they necessarily believe what they are doing? Of course not, they know they are fake. But to the public, they present themselves as legitimate. Why? In the name of the almighty dollar.
Get real.
Your thinking on this matter is very two-dimensional. I cannot honestly compare the JWs to traveling circus preachers. It's a whole different beast entirely. Don't get me wrong, I think they are totally loopey about many things and have caused much harm, but I simply do not think your comparisons (to the Nazis and faith-healers) are good analogys.
Bradley
I was raised and baptized in the pre-75 generation of dubs. I did know the GB. All of them. And many others that you read their names in the Borg history books. And I knew them personally, my father claimed to be of the anointed and I grew up in NJ. I practiced my piano lessons on one of the Bethel pianos and sat on Freddie Franz's lap at dinner. Ted Jarascz gave my dedication talk in 1974. Dan Sidlik and his wife stayed in my home and slept in my bedroom. Henschel, Swingle, Maxwell Friend.....they knew my name.
what I noticed after 1975, as I grew up and moved all over the US serving where the need was greater with my parents first and later a regular pioneer myself, is that the farther away from bethel geographically, and later on -chronologically, the fewer the emotional scandals. Bradley you were lucky. The ugliness didn't touch you. But it touched me. I can honestly say to you now and everyone here (and at the FBI) that I have seen everything from child molestation to instigated suicides to murder covered up, and covered up by the highest 'Ups'. I can tell you the stories, give you names and dates. When I make a statement about the evil of the Borg you are only ASSUMING it is a generalization. Don't assume. email me anytime.
Ravyn
