by logansrun 66 Replies latest jw friends
Ravyn,
I appreciate your post. Obviously, you have first-hand knowledge of things that many of us do not. I certainly would be more than interested in hearing about some of the cover-ups, especially the one involving murder! All the same, I still believe that people go "over the top" on some of their criticisms of the Society. In fact, I know this to be true.
Thank you, though.
Bradley
and after 1975 I do not believe anyone of the GB believed it was God's will or the Truth anymore. They just were in it too deeply to get out unscathed, which meant they sacrificed others for themselves. That is evil. Back in the 40's-60's with Rutherford and Knorr, it was a whole different religion. That all changed after 1975 and the big disappointment. Fred Franz basically went totally off the deep end. He was always a little weird, but after 75 he went power mad. I think Ray portrays this in his books. After 75 the light turned 'new' instead of 'got brighter'. Instead of studying the 'Lamp to my Feet' book to get baptized it became the 'Organization' book. I don't really think I would have called JWs a cult before 75. Not any more so than any other New Age mid-1800's type sect that sprang up.
But back to the comment you made about does anyone think the GB deliberately murders people by promoting and demanding obedience to harmful doctrine---hell yes! they came up with the doctrine that kills people. They know where it came from. And since 1975 none of them think it comes from god anymore. Whether it is to cover their a$$e$ financially and morally--who knows? Maybe they just can't take the ending of the fairytale and have opted to believe their own lies. But they know positively that they ARE lies. They write the scripts 6 million people play out every day, including the death scenes.
Ravyn
Big Tex
It has only been recently that I have begun to appreciate the shades of gray to all those black and white answers. And how rarely a simple answer really solves a complex problem.
The beginning of wisdom is the realization of how little one actually knows.
I find it rather amusing that you are taking an adverserial tone to my post and then write the above. My thread was started to show how there is a lot of "gray" in dealing with the JWs that most people are ready to just name "black." Here I'm the one saying that the situation is not as simple as either the WT or ex-JWs say it is, you disagree with my post and then state that "how rarely a simple answer really solves a complex problem." Does anyone else see the paradox in this?
Bradley
Dear Bradley,
I understand, I think, what you mean by over the top. Some people let their bitterness take the place of common sense. But who can blame them? On the other hand, the farther away you get from the personal pain the more objectively you can see things. For instance one of the most shocking things to me when I first started investigating my doubts was the very balls it took to alter God's Word! Now 7 years later I could care less what a bunch of men do to ancient Jewish/Greek document that was compiled by a bunch of politically motivated wannabes from 16 centuries before. I am no longer shocked and disgusted by that.
I think most of us can tell when someone is just blowing off steam.
Ravyn
And I like you too Bradley. Your statements are cute in a young sort of way.
You know it all now. Imagine what you will know 20 years from now.
'night
Okay logan, you wanna play, let's play.
I do not think he is akin to Hitler (Hitler!) though. Don't change the subject from the JWs to the Nazis.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but it was YOU who brought up Hitler in your initial post. I was simply responding to the comments you made. Hitler was evil, but he did things for the benefit of the German economy. Does this qualify him as redeemable?
You further state:
Do you believe they do this because they just want them to die? Or do they actually believe they are doing the will of God by having such a policy? Think.
Do they want them to die? In all fairness, I would hope not. However as Lady Lee stated these people are collateral damage because the preservation of the image of the organization takes priority at all costs. Does that make them bloodguilty? You betcha. It is well established fact that Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower Society have doctines such as organ transplants and blood transfusions which kill people every year. Do they actually believe they are doing the will of God by having such a policy? Possibly, but it makes them no less bloodguilty. Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Osama Bin Laden think they are doing God's will also. Does this make their actions forgivable or in need of someone to rationalize for them? Think Bradley.
I originally said:
Then who are you to allege and present that they necessarily believe what they preach?
to which you replied:
Who are you to say they don't.
You initially made the assertion, therefore the burden of proof lies upon you to prove your statement. Alas, you or I cannot. Therefore they remain opinion. We can only look to which opinion makes more sense. Yours does not.
You quoted me as saying:
Faith healers travel from town to town setting up tents conducting circus acts touching people while claiming to cure them of cancer and any other ailment. Do they necessarily believe what they are doing? Of course not, they know they are fake. But to the public, they present themselves as legitimate. Why? In the name of the almighty dollar.
I see you conveniently made a sweeping generalization of my comment as merely "emotionalized rubbish." I notice you did not attempt to refute what I said as an analogy as incorrect. How convenient. Insult something, but provide no legitimate foundation for your comments. Your credibility here is dwindling.
The Watchtower Society is one of the most lucrative religious companies in the world. According to Newsday magazine in the September 23rd, 2002 issue, in the year 2001 the Watchtower Society posted $951,000,000 in revenue, that year alone.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/14/37173/1.ashx
NYC 40 September 23, 2002
34.Rank-and-file members are deceived and abused, and continually encouraged to continue peddling magazines. Publishers are asked to donate for the literature received, then householders are asked to donate for literature placed in the field ministry. 951 million dollars a year with Bethelites performing free slave labor, yet you claim it is not about the money? Again I say, get real.
WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY
OF NEW YORK
25 Columbia Heights, Brooklyn, 11201
718-560-5000
www.watchtower.org
Revenue: $951 million
Industry: Publishing
President: Don Adams
Employees: 3,181 in Brooklyn (volunteers)
"We were very pleased with the decision," said spokesman J.R. Brown, adding that while Jehovah's Witnesses dont need any government to authenticate this work ... it is comforting to know that this primitive version of Christianity is still validated. The society publishes 24 million copies of "Watchtower" and 21 million copies of "Awake" to supply more than 6 million Jehovah's Witnesses.
Big Tex,
No, I don't "know it all." Actually, you are starting a sort of straw-man argument here by implying that I think I know it all and am a sort of smarty-pants upstart whippersnapper . Pretty easy to disagree with someone like that.
But, you're wrong.
Actually, the more I learn the more I realize how much I don't know. All the same, I strongly believe that what I've said in my post has a lot of truth in it. Let's stick to the subject instead shall we?
Bradley
I'll be done with this thread in a wee while, dont know why I am bothering but here goes:
You say to reborn:
Do you believe they do this because they just want them to die? Or do they actually believe they are doing the will of God by having such a policy? Think.
"Think"? I think thats pretty patronising, as if somehow he's not thinking and needs you to remind him. The fact is, the Society does know its transfusion doctrine is wrong, they now allow blood particles, and the whole blood isse is being compromised by them. Why? Because they know that it is not Gods will for people to abstain from "whole blood" they just havent got the guts to admit their error. They are blood guilty. When they first found out that Organ transplants was not cannibalistic they took a while before putting it into print, people suffered and died. Then the Society got brave enough to change the doctrine. Yes they are bloodguilty. The same can be said with Vaccinations. They knew in advance that God didnt require people to abstain, yet it still took them a while to put it into print. They had to prepare the JW minds before they announced the change in doctrine. Hence, they are murderers.
I'm not going to waste another ounce of breath trying to reason with you, since you typically ignore the sound reasonings of people here. You give a "List" of reasons why this board is unblanced and apostates are wrong in their thinking and then pretend you were only saying that "Some people take things to extremes". WHy did it take you 2 pages to say something so simple? Fact is, that is not all you said. You said 2 pages of stuff and you got your answers. Answers that destroyed your "logical fallacies", but you wont admit it without moving the goal posts first.
Brummie
this never showed up as posted on my window--sorry if it is a repeat.
Ravyn
and after 1975 I do not believe anyone of the GB believed it was God's will or the Truth anymore. They just were in it too deeply to get out unscathed, which meant they sacrificed others for themselves. That is evil. Back in the 40's-60's with Rutherford and Knorr, it was a whole different religion. That all changed after 1975 and the big disappointment. Fred Franz basically went totally off the deep end. He was always a little weird, but after 75 he went power mad. I think Ray portrays this in his books. After 75 the light turned 'new' instead of 'got brighter'. Instead of studying the 'Lamp to my Feet' book to get baptized it became the 'Organization' book. I don't really think I would have called JWs a cult before 75. Not any more so than any other New Age mid-1800's type sect that sprang up.
But back to the comment you made about does anyone think the GB deliberately murders people by promoting and demanding obedience to harmful doctrine---hell yes! they came up with the doctrine that kills people. They know where it came from. And since 1975 none of them think it comes from god anymore. Whether it is to cover their a$$e$ financially and morally--who knows? Maybe they just can't take the ending of the fairytale and have opted to believe their own lies. But they know positively that they ARE lies. They write the scripts 6 million people play out every day, including the death scenes.Ravyn
Do you believe they do this because they just want them to die? Or do they actually believe they are doing the will of God by having such a policy?
Why is this important? Whichever option is correct, the result is that people die because of the actions of the Governing Body. Last time I checked, using "God told me to do it" isn't a valid defence for causing the death of another person. And cause death they certainly have with their blood transfusion doctrine, which has sent hundreds, probably thousands, of people to the grave who would otherwise have made a recovery. Some of them have even been featured on the cover of the Awak! magazine.
Expatbrit
