I have not found one jehovahs witness who could show me in the bible where jesus is refered to as micheal the archangel or that you could draw such a conclusion. If anyone is willing to discuss this topic with me I would greatly appriciate it.
micheal the archangel
by trinity4life 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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D8TA
Pffft....everybody knows Michael is John Travolta. I saw the movie, and the way the JW's conclude Jesus is Michael but not God, because it's impossible for Jesus to be 3 entities the same time while it's possible to be 2 at the wrong time....er...uh...is somewhat the same. It's FICTION! And you can have loads of fun with FICTION!
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mizpah
The only "evidence" that Jehovah's Witnesses can cite is the scripture (1 Thessalonions 4:16) that Christ comes "...with the voice of an archangel..." The rest of the evidence is only circumstantial. But the Watchtower Society draws absolute conclusions.
In Daniel (chapters 10 7 12} Michael is identified as "the great prince" who stands up for Jehovah's people.
In Revelation, (chapter 12} "Michael and his angels" are the ones who cast Satan and his angels out of heaven. (The Watchtower draws a parallel with the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 which speaks of the woman's seed that crushes the serpent's head.)
But the fact is that the Scriptures do not make a positive identity of Michael, the archangel. Therefore, it is poor Biblical research to be dogmatic about it. But, then, the Watchtower never allows facts to get in the way of their dogma.
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NeonMadman
The only "evidence" that Jehovah's Witnesses can cite is the scripture (1 Thessalonions 4:16) that Christ comes "...with the voice of an archangel..."
But if coming with "the voice of an archangel" makes him an archangel, then what does coming "with the trumpet of God" make him? (as the rest of the verse says)
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Gamaliel
Neon
A voice is your own unless you are really good at doing imitations. A trumpet can be borrowed, stolen, bought or given, but it's external to the person.
Still I agree that Michael was not intended by any Bible writer to be made the equivalent of Jesus. JWs merely needed some evidence that Jesus had a previous existence or duties in heaven that were not quite equal to God, so they latch onto this idea. The idea has been around for centuries though. It didn't start with the JWs.
Gamaliel
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NeonMadman
A voice is your own unless you are really good at doing imitations. A trumpet can be borrowed, stolen, bought or given, but it's external to the person.
That works, of course, assuming that it's Jesus who is doing the vocalizing, which is anything but clear in the scripture. The thrust of the text seems to be about the fanfare that will accompany Jesus' return (proving, of course that it couldn't have happened secretly in 1914). I don't think that the point of the text was to identify Jesus as being either an archangel or God (though I do believe he is God because of other texts).
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Gamaliel
Meant to add this before:
The best evidence against it for me (and possibly to JWs) was Hebrews 1:5, which Undisfellowshipped just reminded me about in another thread on Trinity.
But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet"? Are they not all ministering spirits being sent out to minister for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?
It's not impossible to read that as implying that there is one special angel to whom that was said, but the reading from the context is that the Son must be higher and more special than any angel.
Gamaliel
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mizpah
The scholarly position would have been to draw attention to the role that Michael the archangel plays in Scripture without being dogmatic about who he is. I think some of the reasoning is probably valid. The role that Michael plays lends itself to the same role that Christ plays. The mistake is to make it dogma within the belief system of Jehovah's Witnesses.
The same would hold true for other teachings of the Watchtower Society including that on blood. It should have presented its material based upon Scriptures and even its opinion about them. But the decision should have been left entirely to the consciences of its members.
There are many things in the Bible that do not have conclusive answers. That is why there are so many denominations. But Christians don't have to conform to the same doctrines to be unified in their central belief in Jesus Christ.
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Room 215
I quite agree with Mizpah.... it's not a crucial/core doctine in any case and the WTBTS argumentation is not entirely implausible.... no biggie either way, IMO.
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ignorance is strength
Hebrews 1) Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds. 3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? 6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." 7 Of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire." 8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions." 10 And, "In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like clothing; 12 like a cloak you will roll them up, and like clothing they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end." 13 But to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"? 14 Are not all angels spirits in the divine service, sent to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation? (NRSV)
Doesn't it make sense that the "only-begotton" son of God would be God himself? Jesus was begotton, not created. And as we can see from Paul's passage above, the argument that Jesus was an angel holds no weight whatsoever. It is similar to the Arian heresy of the 4th century.