micheal the archangel

by trinity4life 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  ignorance is strength

  FATHER:

  • "Doubtless Thou art our Father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: Thou, O LORD, art our Father, our Redeemer; Thy Name is from Everlasting" (Isaiah 63:16) .
  • "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto Everlasting Life, which the Son of Man shall give unto you: for Him hath God the Father sealed" (John 6:27) .

  SON:

  • "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6) .
  • "27 My sheep hear My Voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: 28 and I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. 29 My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are One. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from My Father; for which of those works do ye stone Me? 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest Thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If He called them gods, unto whom the Word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; 36 say ye of Him, Whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:27-36) .

  SPIRIT:

  • "And the Earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:2) .
  • "7 Whither shall I go from Thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from Thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into Heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in Hell, behold, Thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 even there shall Thy hand lead me, and Thy right hand shall hold me" (Psalm 139:7-10) .
  • "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost... thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God" (Acts 5:3,4) .

  St. Patrick said: "For there is no other God, nor ever was before, nor shall be hereafter, but God the Father, unbegotten and without beginning, in whom all things began, whose are all things, as we have been taught; and his son Jesus Christ, who manifestly always existed with the Father, before the beginning of time in the spirit with the Father, indescribably begotten before all things, and all things visible and invisible were made by him. He was made man, conquered death and was received into Heaven, to the Father who gave him all power over every name in Heaven and on Earth and in Hell, so that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and God, in whom we believe. And we look to his imminent coming again, the judge of the living and the dead, who will render to each according to his deeds. And he poured out his Holy Spirit on us in abundance, the gift and pledge of immortality, which makes the believers and the obedient into sons of God and co-heirs of Christ who is revealed, and we worship one God in the Trinity of holy name."
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  Will Power

  The only "evidence" that Jehovah's Witnesses can cite is the scripture (1 Thessalonions 4:16) that Christ comes "...with the voice of an archangel..."

  Blueblades is correct. If you do a search on the WT CD you will find the *footnote at the word Lord* in this passages says Jehovah.

  Does anyone really even Know what the word Jehovah Means?

  Everyone must agree that the "word" Jehovah was "coined" (translated) by a 14th cent catholic monk.

  If you do a search in the on-line Strong's Concordance you'll find that ...hovah is word # 1943 meaning "mischief" ....as in god of....

  Most R&F - loyal JWs have a hard time distinguishing between god, jehovah, the society, SO, this is an excellent name don't you think?

  Then back the the topic "michael the archangel" a simple search of Rev. 22:12 for the history of the WT's interpretations of this passage show that they cannot make up their mind as to "who" is coming! It all depends on who is president of the WT as to what is "current truth" TM

  will
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  NeonMadman

  1 Cor. 15 does not speak of the Father but rather of God. It is clear that the Son subjects himself to God after all things are subjected to him. Obviously, it would be impossible if the Son was God.

  Not at all impossible, once you realize that there is more than one Person who can be called God. If the Son subjects himself to the Father, he is subjecting himself to God.

  Jesus is called God numerous times in the scriptures. Why would you sweep away all of those references because of a questionable reading of one verse?

  Additionally, Paul seems to have a stylistic trait of referring to the Father as "God" and to the Son as "Lord." This usage recurs throughout his writings. But it does not mean that the Son is not God, anymore than it means that the Father is not Lord.

  Whatever is acheived later in life a son is always inferior to his father in the sense of time.

  True of humans, yes, but God is eternal and exists outside of time. No analogy is perfect, and this is the point at which this one breaks down. Jesus was with the Father "in the beginning" (John 1:1). The beginning was not the creation of Jesus, since that is not supported by any properly contextual reading of scripture. But the beginning had to be before anything was created. In that way it can be said in Colossians that 'all things that were created were created by Jesus.' Unless he created himself, he was not created.

  I don't think the early Christians were required to believe the complexities and mysteries of a Trinity.

  I don't think that the earliest Christians had a formulation of a Trinity doctrine such as was later developed, no. But I think that they understood that the Father was God, the Son was God, and the Holy Spirit was God, and that there was only one God. While the teaching had not been formalized, the elements of it were certainly there.

  My main objection to orthodoxy is not in the belief in a Trinity. But it is in the tyranny of requiring a Christian to believe that this doctrine is the "central" one necessary for faith. The absence of it in the Bible makes it clear that it is not.

  Your terminology bespeaks a cultic mentality, imho. Christians are not "required" to believe anything. We choose to accept what the Bible teaches, and it is clear in scripture that there are three Persons who are called God, and that God is one. The doctrine itself is not absent at all - the absence of the word "Trinity" really means nothing. The concept is there.

  Allow me to recommend a link that I recently offered in another thread. You will find all the scriptural evidence for the Trinity that should be required here.
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  mizpah

  Neonmadman:

  I'm sure that we will not settle an issue that has been debated by Christians for 1700 years and will continued to be for years in the future. It only proves that Christians can read the same Bible and come to different conclusions. I am encouraged , though, that you don't consider the Trinity doctrine that important, Semantics aside, I think both trinitarians and unitarians can have faith in the Son.

  I apologize to the others for diverging from the discussion on Michael the archangel. It's so easy to do when you read these interesting comments by others.

  Yiz: An interesting point. But didn't Jesus indicate that he was doing everything by the authority of his father anyway? Isn't that a given? Why would this be any different?
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  Kenneson

  "But didn't Jesus indicate that he was doing everything by the authority of his father anyway? Why would this be different?"

  Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18) and all revelation (Rev. 1:1). Since he possessed it, he didn't have to continually turn to the Father for it. Where does it say that Michael possessed authority and revelation?
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  mizpah

  Kenneson:

  Jesus' words at Matthew 28 are spoken after his resurrection and at his descent to heaven. But while on earth, Jesus indicated that he did nothing by his own authority but only by that of his father who sent him.

  Obviously, Michael does possess authority when he fights Satan and his angels and throws them out of heaven.

  But, again, I'm not trying to justify the Watchtower's position that Michael is Christ. There is simply no scriptural evidence to link Michael with Christ. And while there are interesting parallels to be made between the two, it is wrong for the Watchtower to be dogmatic on something that is not explicit in scripture.
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  rocketman

  Discussions such as this one make me wonder sometimes if it can all be summed up by saying the that Bible contradicts itself. There seems to always be such a struggle to "harmonize" verses that seem to clearly be teaching different things. Both Trintitarians and non-Trinnys have this problem.
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  Kenneson

  Mizpah,

  If Jesus received authority only after his resurrection, then are you saying he used it only once--in this instance when he commissions his apostles to preach not only to Israel, but to all nations? How does this square with Luke 9:1 "Then he called the twelve together and GAVE them power and authority over all the demons and to cure sicknesses. And so he SENT them forth to preach the kingdom of God and to heal..." See also Luke 10:19 Is this not before his resurrection?

  In Rev. 12 Michael is not the only one who battles Satan and his angels. There are other angels with Michael. Yet Heb.1:4-8 indicates that Jesus is higher than the angels. See also Eph. 1:21 JWs date this battle to 1914. However, Jesus, while he was still on earth claims to have already witnessed the casting of Satan out of heaven by Michael and his angels. See Luke 10:18 That certainly is logical. Satan already appears on the earth in Genesis 3. And he is already here to tempt Jesus in Matt. 4. But Jesus predicts that Satan will be cast out or driven from this world as well. See John 12:31