by trinity4life 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Doesn't it make sense that the "only-begotton" son of God would be God himself? Jesus was begotton, not created. And as we can see from Paul's passage above, the argument that Jesus was an angel holds no weight whatsoever. It is similar to the Arian heresy of the 4th century.
Ignorance is strength, (??!!)
It might mean that. But I wouldn't say it makes sense linguistically. For example, let's say Isaac is the only-begotten son of Abraham, does that mean Isaac is Abraham?
Gamaliel
It might mean that. But I wouldn't say it makes sense linguistically. For example, let's say Isaac is the only-begotten son of Abraham, does that mean Isaac is Abraham?
No, but it means that Isaac has the same nature as Abraham, in this case, a human nature. Isaac is no less human than Abraham was. Similarly, Jesus' being "begotten" by God means that he has the same nature as God, i.e. that he has the nature of deity (as many other scriptures attest).
But the Son is not the Father, any more than Isaac is Abraham. The Persons are distinct; the nature is common between them.
Neon,
Makes sense. So when 1 John 5 speaks of all who are begotten of God, those humans share in the nature of God. And then, James 1: " 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created." implying that Christians can become the "Firstborn" through the word of truth.
I am seeing a lot more consistency on this subject through the book of John, Hebrews and James now too, thanks to some verses being thrown at me lately. (I'm not a believer myself, just very interested in what the Bible writers believed.)
Gamaliel
The one scripture that Trinitarians find difficult to explain away is found in Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 15:26 - 28:
" For he 'has put everything under his feet.' Now when it says that' everything' has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
On the other hand, the simplistic explanations of the Watchtower do not seem to satisfy why Paul also said:... "Christ Jesus: who being in very nature God (Footnote: in the form of God)...and "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,...."
The truth of the matter probably falls somewhere in between. Perhaps, as humans we can not fully comprehend the spiritual relationship of Father and Son. Maybe we were not meant to do so. Afterall, how can physical man begin to understand the spiritual realm? But that being said, it seems clear that the revealed position of a Father and a Son is something that every human can understand. And that is how God and his son are presented to us in Scripture. Dogmatism on either side of the issue only breeds contention and contempt. Both are not Christian qualities.
In 1Cor.15:27, Ps.8:6 is being quoted, the same Psalm that is being quoted in Hebrews 2:8.
Paul may be qualifying what was written in Hebrews (depending on which was written first).
1Cor.11:3 shows that the head of the Christ is God.
None of these passages contain the term "Father", though it is assumed. I've gotten a little sensitive to this distinction, since as a JW I viewed it as synonymous, regardless of context.
The very terminology of Father and Son would indicate that the Son is not above the Father, nor is the same person, as has already been mentioned in this thread.
Since when has an angel (even an Archangel) been described as having the same form and nature as God (Phil.2:6)?
Since when has an angel (even an Archangel) been described as being the "only-begotten" Son (John 1:18)?
Mizpah,
On 1 Cor. 15:28 "When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all."
Would JWs say that everything is NOW subjected to the Son? If anything then, this would be a future happening. So are the Father and the Son still equal until then?
How are we to be in subjection to one another? Ephesians 5:21
Jesus had no compunction about rebuking the Devil. See Matt. 4:10 Yet Michael the archangel couldn't do it himself but had to ask Jehovah to rebuke Satan. Jude verse 9. How could they be the same?
Ignorance is strength:
I never quite understood the phrase: "only begotten, not created." Does not the word "begotten" suggest a begetter who brought into existence the life of the begotten? A father is a begetter to a son. The son is the begotten. And doesn't that suggest that the begotten was preceded by the begetter and did not exist before the process of begetting?
And what is suggested by John when he calls Jesus the "onlybegotten God?" (John 1:18 ) There are no simple answers to the problems inherent in the Trinity doctrine. This is why orthodoxy has proclaimed it a "divine mystery." It is simpler to just accept the revealed relationship of God and Christ as one of a father to a son. No mystery about that.
Hi Trinity4life,Mizpah mentions 1Thess:4:16 if you look at the footnote ref.in the N.W.T.with References,you will see the word lord is I.D. as Jehovah.Show that to the witnesses,they will look and look again and be totally confused.
Blueblades
Mizpah:
That sounds like misdirection, to me. Is the issue equality or nature?
My quotations were in the context of a unique relationship and nature, that is not alluded to in reference to an angel.
Whilst I may be able to beget a son, who would be of my [kind / form / nature] and might one day be my equal (even greater, since I will grow old and die, and he may have more opportunity than I), I cannot "create" a son.
You may contend that the Son is some lesser "divine" person, but I would contend that even were that true it would still not of necessity make Him Michael.
Gamaliel:
Rev.1:10 talks of Him having a trumpetlike voice.
God and the Son have a similar voice? It surely cannot be... can it?
Before I'm misunderstood, I'm not stating that the Father IS the Son. I'm certain that scripture declares them as two distinct persons.
However, a father and son can have very similar voices (as evidenced by my own dad and I, who have often been mistaken for each other).
