The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality

by JanH 62 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  JanH

  they're kim oyhus' ideas and not yours

  
  Indeed, these ideas are many hundred years old. Kim merely wrote it in predicate calculus.

  I posted the proof as an image link to Kim's homepage.

  Even an absolute dimwit like you could follow the link and find out that Kim was its author. So your assertion I did not credit Kim with this work is absurd.

  But why don't you write Kim and ask him if he feels plagiarized?

  - Jan
  --
  Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
• 

  AcapulcoGold

  ROTFLMAO
• 

  dark clouds

  when it comes to justification we are all geniuses
  ---freud
• 

  mommy

  AG,
  I am curious. I read your post this morning, the one the that you have edited, on the previous page. Why did you sign off as Goo? Now it is corrected and is signed off as this personna AG? I was not the only one who noticed this, we commented in chat about it.

  If you are a troll, shouldn't you be able to keep your personalities straight? If not, perhaps drop one or two honey, your already thin credibility is getting thinner.
  wendy
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Jan,

  I respect your position. I never looked at it from that perspective before. You made a comment I don't fully understand or agree with though. You said something to the effect that if some one rejected your sexuality they rejected you. If someone rejects my alcoholism and in love tries to show me the error of my ways, does that mean they are rejecting me? I don't think so.
  People are welcome to be as gay or straight as they want to be, yes I too "have friends who are gay". I still think the bible teaches against it, and that IF one claims to accept the bible as a guide then homosexuality should be rejected as a way of life as surely as adultery or fornication or murder.
  No offense to those who embrace an alternative lifestyle of any type. Just my humble opinion, that carries as much weight as everyone elses.

  Yeru

  YERUSALYIM
  There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
  Shakespere: Hamlet
• 

  Francois

  Yes, the Borg taught us all to hate; to hate a wide variety of things.

  Personally, I feel the most pernicious hate-lesson we were taught by Jehovah's Witnesses was not the hate for homosexuals, but to hate ourselves - to hate ourselves for our "imperfection" and to hate, to reject, our own ability to think.

  It's the same thing that's going on in public schools today. There's no attempt to teach how to think, only an effort to teach what to think. If you see a difference between the Borg and the public schools in this regard, I've missed it.

  Francois
• 

  JanH

  Yerusalyim,
  

  You said something to the effect that if some one rejected your sexuality they rejected you. If someone rejects my alcoholism and in love tries to show me the error of my ways, does that mean they are rejecting me? I don't think so.

  You cannot compare the two.

  If someone rejects my eating habits, the way I dress, talk, believe, or whatever, that is pretty insignificant issues that I can handle.

  However, if someone actually seriously argued that my love for my woman made my an unclean, immoral person, someone who was less worthy for life or whatever than them, I could not have them as a friend, and I would not at all respect these people. Such a person would reject something at the very core of my identity. If you seriously believed that this made me equal to a murderer, as you say the Bible does about gay people, then I would not be impressed by the hollow "hate the sin, love the sinner" slogan of fundamentalist Christians.

  Were I gay, I would surely feel the same.

  On another note: I note with some satisfaction that the multi-identity troll fucked up its names in the end, as I expected it would. Well spotted, Wendy.

  - Jan
  --
  Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
• 

  SanFranciscoJim

  "People are welcome to be as gay or straight as they want to be, yes I too "have friends who are gay". I still think the bible teaches against it, and that IF one claims to accept the bible as a guide then homosexuality should be rejected as a way of life as surely as adultery or fornication or murder.
  No offense to those who embrace an alternative lifestyle of any type. Just my humble opinion, that carries as much weight as everyone elses."

  
  Yeru, you requested in another thread that I keep posting, so I'll take this opportunity to address the above quote - not argue with it - I realize it's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but to offer you additional perspective.
  You see, I'm one of those rare birds who happens to be gay and still believes in the words of the Bible. So much so, in fact, that I've studied it in Hebrew and Greek for over two decades. I never read my Bible without a companion Strong's Exhaustive Concordance at hand, just to make sure the English translation is reasonable and accurate (considering that Moses, Jesus, and Paul did not speak English, since the language did not exist in their lifetimes). No one has been able to prove to me that the Bible condemns homosexuality.
  In any event, here's some food for thought:
  How do you feel about men who shave? (Lev. 19:27)
  How do you feel about children born out of wedlock? (Deut. 23:2)
  How do you feel about people who wear clothing made of 50/50 material? (Deut. 22:11)
  How do you feel about men who wear hats? (1 Cor. 11:7)
  How do you feel about emancipation from slavery? (Ephesians 6: 5-9)
  The above scriptures are largely ignored or dismissed as obsolete, yet the scriptures by the same writers supposedly condemning homosexuality are not. I've often wondered why.....
• 

  peaceloveharmony

  i'm jumping in here to just say bravo! to jan and jim. thanks for both of your posts. jan, thanks for speaking from your soul. and jim, i love the "food for thought". i've always wondered why hatred is something that some people try to teach crazy.....

  love
  harmony
• 

  XJWBill

  Yeru,

  I have all the respect in the world for someone who *sincerely* cannot accept homosexuality on prayerfully-considered religious grounds. Believe as you wish, and be happy.

  However, I hope you can see my point, too: that your belief leaves me no room to exist at all, except in enforced loneliness. I spent seven years in the JW's that way, secretly feeling all the time that God hated me. I wanted to die. I was miserable. I cannot live that way.

  To summarize the problem succinctly:

  1. I did not choose to be this way.

  2. I can't change the way I am.

  3. God never answered my many prayers to be changed.

  4. Suicide is a sin too, so there's no escape from this dilemma on earth or in the next world, if your view is correct.

  And all of the above will run a person stark screaming crazy--been there, done that.

  So what is to be done with me? It's easy to pass judgment on an abstract moral issue--but here I sit, 98.6 degrees, 5'10", age 45, a house mortgage, a car note, a job, a bank account, bills to pay, birthday cards to send, people who love me, a little fuzzy dog curled at my feet. Just as real as you. What is to be done with ME?

  Believe as you wish, and be happy.

  Meanwhile, what about all these many millions of divorced people nowadays, all of whom are living merrily in adultery, if Christ's own words are taken by the letter? Should they not all "reject that way of life," if they are Christians?

  Bill, who long since made his peace with God on this issue.

  "If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)