Exceptionally well written, Bill! Thank you....
Modern right-wing Christianity (as well as Jehovah's Witnesses) continue to perpetuate the myth that gay people can "change", based solely upon the Apostle Paul's words in 1 Corinthians chapter 6, when he states, after reciting a laundry list of sinners: "That is what some of you were." What they don't realize is that the two Greek words commonly mistranslated as "men kept for unnatural purposes" and "men who lie with men" (malakoi and arsenokoites) are more accurately translated as "spineless, cowardly men", and "lift couches" (thought to be an ancient Greek slang for temple prostitutes).
Until such time as society at large accepts the fact that gay people can no more "cure" their homosexuality then can a 5'5" person such as myself "cure" my shortness and grow to my brother's 6'4" height, then we gay folk will continue being perceived as wicked individuals who have chosen to lead a lascivious, promiscuous lifestyle (another stereotype perpetuated by the JW's and the rest of the right-wingers).
The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
by JanH 62 Replies latest jw friends
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SanFranciscoJim
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RedhorseWoman
Waiting, I, too, have family members who are gay. I think I've mentioned my nephew in previous threads, and my daughter feels that she is bi-sexual.
My nephew came out to me a couple of years ago, but I wasn't at all surprised by this. We had suspected he was gay for most of his life, even though he often spoke about meeting a nice girl and getting married.
Unfortunately, his homosexuality was one of the reasons (although not the only one) that he was rejected by both of his parents and sent to a foster home at the age of 15. I don't think I'll ever forgive my sister for that. Having your own mother call you a f**king faggot doesn't do much for your self-esteem.
I KNOW that my nephew had no "choice" as to his sexual orientation. He tried to be "normal", but heterosexual is NOT normal for him. Knowing his situation and that of many of my gay friends, I could come to no conclusion other than that the current Biblical interpretation of the "sin" of homosexuality is wrong. Logically, it makes no sense to me that God would create sexual variation and then condemn people for it.
At this point in time, I'm hoping that my nephew can find a partner who will love him and that he can live out his life in peace with a person he loves as well.
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waiting
Dear Red,
Thank you for replying. Sometimes it gets lonesome.
waiting
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RedhorseWoman
Waiting....****HUGS***** Any time you want to talk, just e-mail me, okay?
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waiting
Gotcha.
waiting
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Mulan
This is obviously an emotional issue for many here, but for what it's worth, I thought I'd throw in my two cents worth.
I have a niece who is gay, and have learned that some of my friends are gay men. Not in the closet, but it just never came up. I also work with a gay man, that I suspected was gay, but again it just never came up. I grew up as a JW, and had all the prejudices against homosexuality that everyone else did. Before we left the Borg, I had come to the conclusion, that there are just too many gay people, in too many civilizations, to explain it as being a learned behavior, so I tend to think it is inborn for most of them. As in any lifestyle, though, there will be those who pervert it. Casual anonymous sex in a park bathroom between any combination of sexes, can't be considered normal by anyone I hope. And when that behavior extends to little boys, I also have to draw the line. But there are some who would make that a normal thing too. So just be careful in how much you justify something.
I can deal with gay people just fine, the same as I do my other friends. I don't think about what my married couple friends do to each other in the bedroom, so why would I do that with my gay friends?
Seems like a simple solution. To me, people are people. Viva la difference, as they say!!! -
RedhorseWoman
Mulan, I'm sure that this wasn't your intent, but I thought I should clarify something. No one is saying that promiscuous sex (whether heterosexual or homosexual) is acceptable behavior. Nor is anyone condoning pedophilia.
Many people immediately correlate homosexuality with both promiscuity and/or pedophilia, and this is simply NOT the case. In fact more heterosexuals are pedophiles and/or promiscuous than are gays.
For instance, my nephew is looking for a male partner with whom to build a permanent relationship. His being gay does NOT mean that he cruises bars looking for sex.
In fact, in discussing these issues with gay friends, the most important aspect to them is NOT sex, but rather an emotional connection with a member of the same sex that they simply cannot feel with someone of the opposite sex. Most of these people have tried marriage, hoping it would cure them, with disastrous results.
Please do not correlate homosexuality with sexual perversion.
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SanFranciscoJim
I had an elderly gay friend from Chicago who passed away last year. George told me what gay life was like back in the '40s & '50s, and I want to tell you, it was absolutely scary. Back in those days, gay bars were for the most part located in secret locations, and were subject to frequent, unannounced police raids. When you were arrested back then, your name, full address, and occupation was published prominently in the local newspapers. You were treated as if you were a Communist. Lives were ruined. Suicides were common. Because society at large was so condemnatory of the gay lifestyle during this era, gay men were forced to meet in clandestine locations such as public washrooms and parks. This is where society got it's misperception that all gays are lascivious perverts lurking in the shadows waiting to have sex with unsuspecting passersby. Society created the very monster they were afraid of!
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XJWBill
Mulan's point is well taken--we can bandy the word "normal" about until it loses all meaning.
The truth is, the definition of "normal," just like that of "sane" (think about it!) is not absolutely fixed--it goes by majority vote at any point in time.
Having worked a night job for many years until recently, it is now entirely normal for me, if left undisturbed, to sleep till noon and have breakfast in the middle of the afternoon. But I'm sure most folks wouldn't consider it normal!
In ancient Greece, as far as I can tell, it was quite normal for a married man to take an adolescent boy under his wing, teach him how to fight, use a sword, throw a javelin--and bugger him. But we'd all have the adult thrown in jail now for that.
What's considered normal varies from place to place and time to time, and is parallel to the "natural" fallacy that started this thread.
In the gay world, cruising for sex in bathrooms and screwing in public parks is considered low-class and trashy, at least here in the Deep South.
To be honest, there is a great deal of "promiscuous" sex and quite a few "open" relationships. There's also a large block of us, myself included, who have or want just one partner, faithful and monogamous for a lifetime. I can't quote percentages, because I don't know what they are, and I'm not sure anybody does. But I'd be willing to bet that the biggest group would be single gay men who have sex with one lover at a time until the relationship breaks up, and they move on to another relationship.
The promiscuous life is not for me, but I've been around the block once or twice, and I do understand the terrible power of loneliness. With no social training or legal backing, relationships are hard for us to keep together. I've got better things to do than throw dirt at two lonely people who get together in privacy and do whatever.
What gets me is preachers and church members who are so quick to rant about "promiscuous homosexuals"--but notice, you rarely hear them yelling about "promiscuous heterosexuals" do you? Or unwed mothers? Or "living in sin" as MILLIONS of good, "normal" heterosexuals do nowadays? One is theologically as big a sin as the other, so why the distinction? I can't quite figure that out.
Although, after Princess Diana died, I read or heard of a Catholic priest saying that she is undoubtedly in Hell, having been fornicating with her boyfriend and dying without repenting of it. He was, of course, following orthodox Christian teaching to the letter--but does anyone want to believe him? Diana was a troubled soul with several flaws, but to send her to Hell for being so damn lonely and insecure . . . ?
I'm an orthodox Christian, too, but the God I believe in has different criteria. See Matthew 24.
Bill
"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)
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AcapulcoGold
mommy - hi guys , how's the shift going?
janh - one of these days you're going to surprise us all and add some humour, wit, charm, intelligence and originality to one of your posts
- in the meantime, i'm not holding my breath
yours
mommie dark